to think strict doesn’t automatically equals good when it comes to school?

[Merryoldgoat]

I have several friends who’s children have just started high school. These are some of the rules:

No talking in corridors
Single file in corridors
Detention for lateness (even if 1 minute)
No brands of any kind
Bizarrely prescriptive rules about shoes
No artificially coloured hair

It feels like every single time a child tries to express themselves they get punished.

Is this what every school is like now? My DC are younger and I’ve not experienced this but I’m dreading it to be frank.

If you teach in a school like this how do you feel about it? It feels so draconian.

@TeenMinusTests

It’s not hard but what’s the point? What does it teach?

Why does it matter if I have an undercut or shaved patterns in my hair? Why can’t it be pink?

I interviewed once at a very posh property management company a few years ago. The lady on reception was resplendent with petrol blue hair and the woman who interviewed me (CFO) was in jeans.

lazylinguist we may be the same teacher although I’ve ‘only’ been teaching 12 or so years.

@Coyoacan

Quite few years ago, the BBC produced a series of radio programmes based on real secondary schools. What struck me was that they punished running in the corridor so severely that they was barely any distinction between the punishment for that behaviour and mugging an old lady during the lunch break.

I'm all for sensible rules, but when young people can indulge in so much forbidden and risky behaviour, do we really have to tell them off for the clothes they wear and how they style their hair?

You have put this far better and more succinctly than I was able to.

Blazers = Why

Politeness and respect do actually need to go both way. There's is so much evidence on this.
It is flowing in the direction of adults currently. (Back to the 1950s. Except with strict uniform).

OP I'm with you. Are there really no relaxed secondary schools near you? Where I am east London there are super strict academies but also some slightly more relaxed ones. I'm not sending my DD somewhere where she's slammed for every tiny infringement.

I worry about the messages that say 'if you don't like it, send your child elsewhere'. (Not messages in this thread, but generally about schools). We don't have free choice to choose a school that suits our child- unless we can pay for private school. The idea I've seen stated in defence of policies like this, that a school can set whatever rules it wants and that it's a parent's choice to send their child to that school and not another is ridiculous- the schools in my area are all oversubscribed, and you take what you can get!

The only one there I think is a bit OTT is the talking in the corridors.

The problem with that attitude of it's only 1 minute late, what happens to 2 minutes late, I mean it's only 2 minutes, so where is the absolute cut off. I think late is late and it's good to teach kids this is disrespectful, yes unavoidable at times, but still in a workplace environment lateness goes against you.

Our son has just stated reception in "non branded" school, I can see the reasoning behind it and support that, if it helps other children feel a little less shit about themselves.

School corridors are awful and are most pupils worst part of the day so to have them calm and quiet is a fantastic idea. Lots of years groups are staggered at the moment due to Covid so there’s potentially other lessons still going on.

I am also all for uniform, non branded clothes, non-dyed hair etc as it creates an equality between them all. Not everyone can afford branded clothes etc and it would turn into a competition about who had the cooler/most expensive clothes and shoes.

Yanbu

My daughter went to a school like this which, academically is very poor. My daughter is a bright girl and only got good / average GCSE results. She’s doing much better at A level in a different school.

I have heard that this school struggles to get any child through GCSEs if they have any learning problems

Blazers can be very helpful for carrying things.
Especially for girls given the fact that clothes manufacturers usually seem to think female clothes don't need decent pockets.

Personally I've never had an issue with uniform, makes it very easy deciding what to wear. But my DC were slow growing and same sex so it didn't cost me as much as some parents.

DD's at college now. She has uniform overalls and other workwear.

@TellMeDinosaurFacts

I know it’s depressing. I have been spoiled with my son’s current school who have nurtured him so wonderfully over the last few years.

Sounds reasonable - may turn out politer children.

My DC has just started secondary school and it seems far stricter than it was in my day. It has caused her quite a lot of anxiety. The uniform rules in particular seem over the top.

@OldWivesTale

How would adults feel if they were treated like this in the workplace? It's horrible. Sadly it's part of the academy culture now designed to keep the minions in their place. I've worked in state schools and private schools and it's usually the schools in the most deprived areas that have the most draconian rules. The pupils at the 30 grand a year private school didn't have to wear any uniform, could just go out to the toilet whenever they liked, drink in class and were generally treated with respect. The state school kids are treated like shit in comparison. Fortunately we're privileged enough to put our daughter into private education where the children are treated respectfully but her former state academy was awful. But I really believe that it's deliberate; it's training the riff-raff to know their place and do as they're told.

Yes absolutely, I worked in such an academy chain and still think about it often. I think the idea is that the children from difficult backgrounds will be helped because the strict rules will provide an atmosphere where they get good grades, which is a step up the ladder and will help them progress in life. It’s depressing because I guess it’s kind of true???? (Big question mark!) It’s so problematic though, because it teaches these particular children to obey uncritically. And it really does - the sixth formers this school churned out we’re lovely but every time a guest speaker attended for an assembly, literally not a single student ever asked a question or answered a question. Not a single a level student was confident enough to speak out and display initiative. On the other hand children from private schools are encouraged at every turn to debate, express themselves and to confidently take up space the that they are entitled to in public life. So whilst the ‘strict school’ students are getting the grades to progress, only a certain kind of progress is allowed them.

How would adults feel if they were treated like this in the workplace?

Do you run into the office screaming and shouting and jumping on your co-workers who are much smaller than you?

Do you often turn up late for work?

Do you wear appropriate office wear clothing or are you head to toe in Burberry or wear trackie bottoms and trainers with the brand name all over them?

If you did these you wouldn’t have a job for very long. It would also impact your own work and others work.

I don’t like teachers that are too strict but I think clear rules are very good and they benefit the students especially the good, quiet kids who can find school quite difficult.

Punitive punishment doesn't work, end of.
Although you'll have some "Do Gooders" tell you otherwise.
Schools are like prisons these days, 8ft high fences and no way out until the end of the day? It just encourages herd mentality. Not to mention that kids are already institutionalised for 20 years of their life. You'd have thought they were in school for punishment not to learn.

I think any workplace that has all its 100s of employees moving around in opposite directions and once would have some very clear guidance on moving around, and adults tend to have slightly more common sense (supposedly!) in these situations

I’m a teacher (primary to be fair) and I’ve never changed the opinion I had as a teenager that what your hair looks like is not something that a position of authority should be able to dictate.

@Lady1576

I didn’t say this immediately but I work at a private school. No detentions for lateness. There is uniform but no funny rules about hair - we have boys with every possible style.

They’re encouraged to laugh, talk, express themselves, be kind etc. It’s the exact opposite of what I see in state schools.

They’re not silent in the corridors, they aren’t single file but no one’s hurt and lessons manage to go on.

I like rules. Michaela Community School in London has rules like this - I think it’s called the warm strict approach. The kids just know absolutely what to expect and there’s complete consistency. Their results are fantastic: unsurprisingly the kids do really well when their learning isn’t disrupted and they’re given some sensible behaviour rules to make the community work. I’d send my kids to a school like this without hesitation.

Society has rules and schools are also learning ground for social skills. They are to me a bit like mini societies where we practice how to behave amongst others and make adjustments to our behaviour that impacts on others. like being able to queue and to understand what single file is. It’s important or else imagine the stampede on the escalators on the tube for example.

We had rules like this when I was at school, 40 years ago. Wedding know any different and we were all so afraid of the year of senior girls, even the boys, so we stuck to them.
I'm not sure what affect it had on us but I'm amazed how many of us were married in our early to mid 20s and are still married so perhaps we have fortitude.

How rules are negotiated and imposed however, eg shouty teachers and the consequences of breaking them is what has a negative effect I think