to think strict doesn’t automatically equals good when it comes to school?

[Merryoldgoat]

I have several friends who’s children have just started high school. These are some of the rules:

No talking in corridors
Single file in corridors
Detention for lateness (even if 1 minute)
No brands of any kind
Bizarrely prescriptive rules about shoes
No artificially coloured hair

It feels like every single time a child tries to express themselves they get punished.

Is this what every school is like now? My DC are younger and I’ve not experienced this but I’m dreading it to be frank.

If you teach in a school like this how do you feel about it? It feels so draconian.

This approach has had some success in areas where many of the students have chaotic home lives. It seems to be being adopted en masse by academy heads, who are trawling reports looking for any favourable comments OFSTED have made about other schools.
I worked in a school which had a similar system, but it was unwarranted and caused distress. Conversely, I would have loved this approach in my own deprived city comp in the 90s. It was considered sport to see how many people you could spit on during lesson changeover. The toilets could not be left unlocked as it was considered too dangerous.
I now work in a private school where there is a relaxed approach, with the exception of uniform. It is a lovely working relationship with the kids. But they thank me after every lesson and ask me if I had a nice weekend. They are not calling me a cnt and telling me to fck off.

I always find these sorts of discussions really interesting.

I went to a very strict secondary. Blazers must be worn in the corridor between lessons. Can’t take them off unless you ask. Rules about hair etc etc.
When I look back two things occur to me.
First, we asked our head of sixth form about some of these rules on our last day. What did it matter if our shoes had logos on?
He said: “really, it doesn’t. But because we were strict on the little things, you didn’t bother to mess with the big rules, like not leaving school premises during the school day. You knew there were consequences for little things and that was where you pushed boundaries but big things, like fighting in school or truanting, didn’t really happen”.
He was right, it didn’t. And if they did the consequences were followed through with. The only time I experienced bullying the school took it really seriously, followed through on everything and it never reoccurred.

Second, they were fair and as we got older, flexible. So for example I never once had a teacher say we couldn’t remove our blazers. Nobody went on a power trip with it. So we just accepted it as an eccentricity of the school rules. Part of the uniform, which lots of workplaces do have. (Very few blazers got lost too, because you had to wear them!). Similarly there were strict rules about what happened if you failed to hand homework in. I forgot a couple of times. What happened was that, especially as I got older, if it was a genuine one-off the teachers would look at your track record and say ‘Try not to forget again.’ Persistent offenders got the full range of sanctions.
So while written down the rules seemed draconian, they were not always enforced, depending on your history of behaviour etc.

Hmmm….uniform does NOT stop bullying. I wish people would stop trotting this out. The brands thing is a strange one though. A couple of years ago, there was a set of parents in one of the local papers; their kid had been told they couldn’t wear their Superdry (or whatever brand it was) coat to school. Mum was up in arms as said coat had cost £100+ and she had bought the kid a coat they picked that would last through winter. She said she couldn’t afford to buy another coat and the kid wouldn’t wear their ‘school’ coat anywhere else but would wear their branded one everywhere, including school.

I used to agree with you OP. Then my DH started working in a secondary and behavior is frankly appalling. These rules are necessary to keep some kind of order! I think it comes from bad parenting/ lack of boundaries at home/ increase in gaming and mobile phones. A lot of high school children can be extremely entitled (parents phoning school to moan about every punishment with excuses) as well as out of control, so they need clear rules and regs to try and create some sense of responsibility and order. It is sad.

I think there's a balance.

One of my DC's went to a relaxed school. It was awful. The children ran riot, teachers did not care, students were allowed to request to frequently go to the toilet (even though they were likely to mess around) students can refuse to go to lessons, the staff couldn't "force" them, the students would play in the corridor, students were allowed to wear track suits, trainers to school. In return, the school had children who did not follow the rules, it impacted on my DC's education, we just left. The lax attitude made a terror for those kids.

I think these sorts of environments work for the majority, most of the time. And, as pps say, more so if boundaries and rules aren't a community's strong point. They've certainly helped an awful lot of young people who would otherwise have found it very hard to adjust to any kind of workplace environment. If it's not the place for your child, it won't work though.

I moved around a lot as a child and went to several senior schools with varying levels of strictness. The one with the strictest rules (especially on uniform- single supplier/style, uncomfortable and several PE kits with harsh punishment for getting it wrong) had a lot of problems with drinking, smoking, drugs etc and academic results were not great. The least strict (uniform was just certain colours- any design was fine, makeup/dyed hair was acceptable etc) got about the best academic results in the county and also offered loads of more practical options for less academic pupils- and from what I saw had far fewer kids getting in to drugs etc. So on my very non scientific sample of one person's lived experience, no- strict does not necessarily mean better.

@toocold54

No, I don't jump on my colleagues but that's not what we're talking about here; these are silent corridors where you're not allowed to even whisper to your friend. At work most adults do talk to each other as they walk around the building; they do talk to each other in the office. They are allowed to remove their jackets on a boiling hot day; they are allowed to get a drink if they're thirsty and go to the toilet when they need to. I'm sorry, but adults are not treated like this in the workplace at all. It's inhumane.

Teenagers naturally rebel and push against rules and boundaries. I think the idea here is that if the school is strict about things that seem like they really don't matter, it gives the kids a boundary to push against without there being any serious consequences if they do break the rules.

I've said it before and will continue to say it.
My Dd went to one of the best state schools in Glasgow.
No uniform, no ridiculous rules, excellent pastoral care, encouraged individuality.
Parents move to get their kids in there.
She's now thriving in FE and her hair colour doesn't seem to be an issue.

One of my DC's went to a relaxed school. It was awful.

Yes, the strictness of a school's rules alone are not what makes a school good or bad. There are good relaxed schools and bad relaxed schools.

All the good schools in my city are like this. The 2 which are less strict have poor results. My DS goes to one of the schools which was less strict and it was rated ‘Needs Improvement’. We didn’t want him to go to this school but it’s the one he got.

It’s now been taken over by an academy and they have these strict rules. My DS says the behaviour is MUCH better and he feels he can learn without constant distractions.

The academy chain has a reputation of turning around poor schools and my DS says it will be the best in the city in a few years! He feels like he will achieve well here now. 6 months ago he was saying that he went to a shit school…

I do agree that blazers and ties seem unnecessary though. Why can’t they wear polo shirts and jumpers like primary school? My work place abandoned ‘office wear’ about 5 years ago and now most us wear jeans - even the senior executive!

[quote Merryoldgoat]@Lady1576

I didn’t say this immediately but I work at a private school. No detentions for lateness. There is uniform but no funny rules about hair - we have boys with every possible style.

They’re encouraged to laugh, talk, express themselves, be kind etc. It’s the exact opposite of what I see in state schools.

They’re not silent in the corridors, they aren’t single file but no one’s hurt and lessons manage to go on.[/quote]

A few things occur to me about this.

For one thing private schools are usually smaller so there is less crowding.

The parents are paying customers. And if the paying customers don't like how little lord fauntleroy is being treated, they'll take their custom elsewhere.

Some parents took a child out of a private school my dd was in because the teacher didn't agree with them that their daughter was gifted.

This is my experience of private schools. The parents are customers. They expect expensive cake at parents evening.

I'm in favour of uniform in principle but making them dress in blazers and ties (especially in hot weather!) and putting pupils into isolation booths for minor uniform breaches is just awful.

No, this isn't typical. Trust me from my own experience from my son's school - the opposite is far, far worse.

@lazylinguist

I've been a teacher for 25 years and have secondary age dc and I agree with you, OP. I am not a lax teacher by any means, but I don't think draconian rules are usually helpful. Zero tolerance rules should be kept for things like offensive language, disruptive behaviour, bullying, damage to property, disrespectful behaviour towards staff etc. Not saying hi to a friend in the corridor or having a branded pencil case fgs!

The not talking in the corridors rule is frankly absurd. The only time significant numbers of kids are in the corridors is between lessons. It would take umpteen members of staff standing in the corridors to police that rule, and it's totally unnecessary. Expecting students to be quiet and pay attention in lessons and then move to their next lesson without a single word to their friends and classmates is just mean and a bit pathetically power-trippy, frankly.

I'm not a fan of uniform, partly because it creates more unnecessary rules to be broken. I think rules should prioritise learning, safety and well-being, not create a military-type atmosphere.

^ talking sense here. Best schools I have worked in have no uniform and prioritise real well-being and happiness of the students. And yes, the progress and results were well above the national average! Happy, then high achieving.

Private schools are able to treat their pupils with respect because they have smaller classes. If the government want to improve behaviour and educational standards then they need to provide more funding to enable state schools to halve class sizes. All this strictness and uniform bollocks is a smokescreen to distract from the fact that classesand schools are far too big. When classes go from 30 to 15, the whole atmosphere changes. Its easy to manage behaviour by building good relationships. This is impossible with large classes. I just wish school leaders could be honest about this instead of fucking about with petty rules and uniform to make parents and Ofsted think it's a "good" school. All these rules do is teach kids not to question authority and not to think critically. I worked in one academy where kids were never allowed to use the word "no" to a teacher; this was an actual rule.

I have 2 teens at 2 different schools in the same town. My DD is at an outstanding very strict academy and my son is at a good much more relaxed academy. My DD's school has strict uniform guidelines on skirt length, style of sock, hair style etc and isolations and detentions a plenty for talking in the corridor and generally being a bit more individual. The teachers go above and beyond academically because they want the results my DD has lots of extra interventions and the progress she has made is amazing however the strictness and need to be perfect stresses her out and she is constantly worrying is she good enough???? my son is at a less strict school but their pastroral and wellbeing is brilliant and each child is allowed to be an individual but because they are less strict there is far more disruption. So in a nutshell my DD is thriving academically at a strict school but she is constantly on edge and my son academically can't really thrive as the lessons are disrupted but any MH issues or anxiety issues are understood and dealt with and there is less pressure. My son is far happier at school than my daughter but she will get the better academic results due to the strict rules!!

The school I work in needs to be more strict, half the time I think it’s break time when it isn’t as that many are wandering around having a jolly

I think the strictness of schools has increased because secondary schools are now often massive. If you’re making the flow and behaviour of 1800 or more kids, then I can see the need more more rules.

@toocold54

How would adults feel if they were treated like this in the workplace?

Do you run into the office screaming and shouting and jumping on your co-workers who are much smaller than you?

Do you often turn up late for work?

Do you wear appropriate office wear clothing or are you head to toe in Burberry or wear trackie bottoms and trainers with the brand name all over them?

If you did these you wouldn’t have a job for very long. It would also impact your own work and others work.

I don’t like teachers that are too strict but I think clear rules are very good and they benefit the students especially the good, quiet kids who can find school quite difficult.

1. No, but I also don’t walk in silently. I greet my colleagues and talk to them and make small talk. No-one gets crushed. (I totally know what you mean though…. Sometimes teenagers of a very specific age do seem like a different species, but a rule about walkng around and entering the class quietly should suffice).
2. No, but if I am late for a meeting, I make my apologies and people accept that probably there’s a valid reason unless it happens all the time, then it would be dealt with.
3. Yes, I wear appropriate office clothing but I don’t get a disciplinary for wearing a different style to my colleague. Nothing wrong with rules at all. The problem is blanket, no right of reply, instant punishment enforcement of rules. I have witnessed a sweet year 8 girl be shouted at (not taken aside quietly) for wearing small hoop earrings on a non-uniform 4 day trip abroad. No explicit guidance had been given that only studs were allowed and it was non-uniform on the trip - this is what I’m taking about.

@toocold54

Similar to @Lady1576

1. I chat to colleagues, call out hello to the odd person and laugh/chat on occasion too all in the corridor.

1. I don’t have a start time - my manager says he doesn’t much care what time I’m in as long as my job gets done. If I’m late for a meeting for a decent reason it’s not an issue.

1. I had a horrific night with sick children last night. I didn’t realise until I got to my managers office I was still in my ‘slippers’ (casual flip flops). I apologised and he laughed and told me an anecdote about something similar happening to him.

Also - what’s appropriate office wear? Appropriate for the role is what key surely? I could have a pierced nose, undercut and wear biker boots. No one would bat an eyelid.

I have been in my current job for 7 years, I have a senior position, have had excellent feedback and an a relied upon and reliable member of staff. I’ve been given pay increases without asking and earn well above average for my role.

I didn’t say this immediately but I work at a private school. No detentions for lateness. There is uniform but no funny rules about hair - we have boys with every possible style.

They’re encouraged to laugh, talk, express themselves, be kind etc. It’s the exact opposite of what I see in state schools.

I've worked in multiple comprehensives and several private schools, and have seen the differences in rules that you describe. But I'm afraid we aren't comparing like with like. As I already said, I'm against very draconian rules, and uniform, but if your average state comprehensive tried to operate in the same way as the girls' private day school I worked at, it just wouldn't work at all. They didn't actually even have a sanctions policy or any detentions, as they weren't needed!

But encouraging kindness, self-expression and being kind? That happens at every school I've worked at, state or private.

What do they mean by no brands? Everything is made by some brand or another, even if it's George at Asda or Primark! Do they expect students to have home made clothes, shoes and bags?

It's fucking ridiculous and I would refuse to send my child to a school that treats kids like prisoners

@Plumbear2

It makes sense. No talking in corridors as other classes are having lessons. Single file to make room for others coming from the opposite direction. Detention for lateness disrupts the class and teacher, maybe they won't be late next time. No brands or rules about shoes, it's school not a fashion parade. Quite frankly I don't want a school that accepts lateness as a way to express themselves 😠

This.

There are many ways you can express yourself. The list in your post are probably not the most effective ways to express yourself, but are good examples of the standards required in schools, professional environments etc.
Many people manage with these rules and can express individuality/still be true to themselves.