People who claim to be empaths are narcissists

[Justreadingtheforum3]

I know a couple of people who claim to be empaths. They say things like "I was crying I feel their pain so deeply". This is normally in response to someone telling them their problem. Everything has to be about them and their feelings.

I'm pretty sure everyone is empathetic bar a few sociopaths, but other people don't have to make other peoples trauma about them?! In fact I think its insulting to the person experiencing the trauma to have person who believes they feel their problems deeper than them.

I'm assuming we all know at least one of these "empaths".

Are people claiming to empaths narcissist?

Yabu no they're not

Yanbu they are

I think the term you are looking for is 'twat'.

The word "empath" had not yet got into dictionaries in 2002; empathic yes, empathetic yes, empathy yes, but not empath. Empathy then meant "empathy: the power of understanding and imaginatively entering into another's feelings".

Claiming to be one (as opposed to having that ability) before that wouldn't have been possible, so what did people who were naturally able to enter into the feelings of others call themselves before this century? or did they just get on with trying to be kind to people they could tell were in distress, having fun with people who were happy and avoiding people who gave them a grue?

(I assume empaths don't only feel the nasty stuff?) (The spellcheck on this machine does not recognise the word "empaths". Oops.)

I agree with someone upthread who said being empathetic is an ability that exists on a spectrum. Also psychopathy exists on a spectrum, a few psychopathic traits can be a good thing it's said to be a quality of people like brain surgeons and fighter pilots. Having that ability to shut down emotion and laser focus on the task at hand and thriving in risky, stressful situations. Too much psychopathy and you become a danger to society and yourself. I think it's the same with empathy, being a little more empathetic than normal would make you very good in the caring professions, too much and you would be liable to have a lot of problems dealing with everyday life, setting boundaries with others and keeping your mood steady.

I also agree that "being an empath" and "having empathy" are different things.

I know two people who are self-pronounced 'empaths'. The first is a manipulative bully who is desperately insecure, which drives them to want to be everyone's best and most indispensable friend. When they aren't getting their own way (or even the perception of not getting their own way) they're a nasty piece of work, which becomes "You won't dare stand up to me because I'll cry and then everyone else will hate you because I AM A LOVELY KIND PERSON". Bloody exhausting.

The other one has a very sad history of abuse. I think she's used the whole empath/narcissist thing to come to terms with it, in that she believes that narcissists (or 'narcs' ) target empaths and therefore what happened to her is because she's a lovely person with pure spirit. She also seems to see the world as divided into empaths/good people and narcissists/bad people, and if she learns how to 'spot a narc' she'll be able to keep herself safe. Equally sadly she's got herself a therapist who seems to be of the "Me too, hun" brigade, rather than any sort of clinical qualification, and who seems to specialise in inspo-crap. Even worse still, my friend has decided she wants to be a therapist too in order to 'help abused women' which is a fucking terrible idea.

I sometimes feel other's pain acutely, I'm sure we all do from time to time in some way and to differing degrees, particularly if it's someone we are close to or whose situation is unfair or hard to cope with. But the difference comes in how we react to it - the self-proclaimed empaths are usually the 'emotional tourists' mentioned above (great phrase!) or those who just want to be involved in other people's problems so they can make it about themselves or look good. These people are to be avoided.

@BrightYellowDaffodil

in that she believes that narcissists (or 'narcs' hmm ) target empaths and therefore what happened to her is because she's a lovely person with pure spirit

That's interesting, because really, if you're so much in tune with others' feelings, you'd run a mile from any 'narc' you came across, because you'd be able to feel their deceptiveness. That's a part of being very empathic that can be very useful; the more empathic you are, the more you can tell if somebody is untrustworthy.

What would your friend say if you put that to her? She seems very keen on absolving herself of responsibility for allowing herself to become the victim of a narcissist.

@TheFoundations

To be fair to her, some of the abuse stems from childhood so I don't think it would be right to level an accusation of "allowing" herself to be a victim at that time. In my opinion (and I'm not a psychologist) I'd say she's a very damaged person looking to make sense of what's happened to her in order to be able to cope with her past, and who is frightened of it happening again. I don't think she can separate what's genuinely nice and normal behaviour from behaviour that starts out as being nice and normal but becomes abuse. I'd also say she's got it into her head that "being an empath" is the same as "being a nice person", rather than being someone who is particularly in tune with the emotions of others.

Bluntly, I don't think there's any sense in what she talks about, it's all just a coping mechanism. Sadly she's pretty vulnerable and she's also now been sucked down an anti-vaxxer/covid conspiracy theories rabbit hole.

To be fair to her, some of the abuse stems from childhood

Sorry, I hadn't realised that. She might still be putting herself willingly at the mercy of abusers, though, if she's sure that being lovely can make her a victim. I can see it's a way of trying to make sense of a world where you're nice and other people aren't, but I hope she doesn't throw herself into the 'I'm bound to be a victim' hole.

if you're so much in tune with others' feelings, you'd run a mile from any 'narc' you came across, because you'd be able to feel their deceptiveness. That's a part of being very empathic that can be very useful; the more empathic you are, the more you can tell if somebody is untrustworthy.

I meant to quote this bit too, because I completely agree with it. I wouldn't say empathy is something I can do to a notable extent but sometimes it happens and can be exhausting. Interestingly I never liked the guy she's split up with recently because to me he always screamed "Mr Nice Guy", like he was wearing a mask and everything was a "front". Turns out I was right...

I can see it's a way of trying to make sense of a world where you're nice and other people aren't, but I hope she doesn't throw herself into the 'I'm bound to be a victim' hole.

I think she's teetering on the edge of that. She's desperate to avoid being a victim again but it just makes her see almost everyone as a 'narc' for the sake of protecting herself, and has made her very angry and bitter. I've stepped back from the friendship because I just can't listen to the rants and the "I'm a victim" stuff any more.

In my experience of nearly 60 years, people who feel the need to tell you what they are are generally the opposite. I worked with a woman who liked to remind me that she was "a very spiritual" person, when in reality she was about as spiritual as a wooden spoon. Same goes for those who self proclaim to be; empathic, honest, sensual etc. I always take an interest in anyone who self proclaims and they never let me down.

Does being an empath mean that you only feel other people's negative feelings, or do their positive ones too impinge?

@ClawedButler

Well I think most of us can agree that people who publicly say they are empaths are not empaths, by definition.

Someone upthread likened "empaths" to "psychics". As in, this ability isn't real, so you can't genuinely believe you are one. To my mind, though, people who claim to be psychic are probably like Derren Brown but don't know it - as in, they are incredibly good at reading people and making things sound true and personal, but as they don't realise that they are using this skill they think it's psychic ability.

I think that being an empath is similar. Hypervigilance and sensitivity to the most subtle cues mean you pick up on every nuance of the mood, and interpret that according to your own (trauma-based, possibly) experience, and that is experienced as taking on the feelings of others. It's not a gift. It's a burden. And anyone using it like a badge of honour has fundamentally misunderstood what it actually means.

I think that’s fair. I also wonder how a self-proclaimed ‘empath’ knows they are more empathic than other people — after all, how would you calculate that, given that there’s no scale against which varying degrees of empathy can be measured? It’s like trying to judge your own pain threshold against your friend who breezed through labour with no pain relief.

If the self-proclaimed empath bases their sense that they’re unusually empathetic on the fact that they burst into tears when someone tells them something sad, or are disabled by other peoples suffering or trauma, or can’t cope with watching news footage of humanitarian disasters, then I would say that another available (less glamorous) explanation is that they’re simply unusually poor at regulating their own emotions against stimuli.

@MotherofPoodles

I think empaths are more likely to be hyper vigilant which is usually caused by trauma.

Agree with this.

And this is a key distinction, IMO

"being an empath" and "having empathy" are different things.

how a self-proclaimed ‘empath’ knows they are more empathic than other people — after all, how would you calculate that, given that there’s no scale against which varying degrees of empathy can be measured

I've wondered that. I was told by a counsellor, who has lots of experience of dealing with lots of people's inner feelings, so I suppose someone in that position would have more of an overview of the spectrum. Wouldn't have thought it up on my own though.

@Angrymum22

A term I saw used on MN for an empath was ‘a grief thief’. Someone who claims to be as bereaved as the close relatives in order to gain attention in rl and online. It is really uncomfortable to see it in action. I’ve recently been diagnosed with cancer and have deliberately not told the family members who would use it to gain attention for themselves. In fact I told very few people because the go to reaction is sympathy which suggests they are already working out what to wear at your funeral. Empathy is spontaneous and uncontrollable. It is a knee jerk reaction to a situation. It is not about feeling someone’s pain but all about being unable to take that pain away.

This isn't empathy, this is nothing about what being an 'empath' is.

Everyone has empathy, its a natural occurence.

However, an 'empath' as such, is supposed to be someone who simply is able to sense emotion in someone on a very deep level.. its mostly simply a very high sensitivity to body language and speech tone that allows you to 'read' the mood the person is in.. some are able to take it to a further level and be able to help that person through any negative emotions with talking, comfort, friendship/councelling...etc.

A Narc will make it ALL about them.. these people aren't empaths, they're emotional vampires who just want to latch onto peoples sadness and grief.

A proper Empath will simply help someone in distress, give them a hug, then carry on with their day and find some other way to ground out any negative emotions they absorbed while they were helping the person without anyone else even being aware they took some of it into themselves.

I would say that another available (less glamorous) explanation is that they’re simply unusually poor at regulating their own emotions against stimuli

Is anybody claiming it to be glamorous in the first place?

Also, this is a bit like saying that the person who runs fastest and furthest from an attacker is the least good at dealing with attackers. A more extreme response is sometimes a better response.

Yadnbu!! I know a self proclaimed empath who manages to make everyone else's worries/concerns/problems all about them

@TheFoundations

I would say that another available (less glamorous) explanation is that they’re simply unusually poor at regulating their own emotions against stimuli

Is anybody claiming it to be glamorous in the first place?

Also, this is a bit like saying that the person who runs fastest and furthest from an attacker is the least good at dealing with attackers. A more extreme response is sometimes a better response.

I think claiming to be ‘an empath’ with its suggestions of super- sensitivity and unusual powers of feeling is definitely a more glamorous/positive self-description that ‘Actually, I’m just not very good at regulating my emotions so that if a friend tells me about her cancer diagnosis/pregnancy loss/bereavement, I am completely overwhelmed’ or ‘I’m hyper vigilant because of an abusive past, so I register other people’s feelings to a disabling extent’.

I think claiming to be ‘an empath’ with its suggestions of super- sensitivity and unusual powers of feeling is definitely a more glamorous/positive self-description that ‘Actually, I’m just not very good at regulating my emotions so that if a friend tells me about her cancer diagnosis/pregnancy loss/bereavement, I am completely overwhelmed’ or ‘I’m hyper vigilant because of an abusive past, so I register other people’s feelings to a disabling extent’.

That's a very good way of describing it. I also think that 'identifying' as something, in this case as an empath, is a way of putting the issue outside of yourself and therefore not something you can be expected to do anything about. Like it's a physical trait you can't change.

Why this obsession with labels? It is depersonalising . And as they say labels are for soup tins

@AnotherFruitcake

Yes, but you're only looking at half the story. Like most personality traits, there needs to be a balance. Too much either way isn't a good thing. Too much in the way you're stating isn't helpful, but you're focusing on the non-glamorous aspects, then saying that people are avoiding saying those by using the term. But there are also aspects that are helpful/useful, so saying 'I'm an empath' wouldn't be as glamorous as saying something like 'If you are untrustworthy, I'll spot it in a second, even before anybody else does', or 'If you're lying, I'll know before you do'.

Same as being selfish or kind or anything else. A label for it isn't a comparator to make it sound better or worse; it already has good and bad sides.

@LemonTT

There’s nothing special about being able to read people’s emotions. We can all do it because as humans we tend to have excellent and obvious ways to signal feelings. We use our facial expressions, body language and actual language and tone to convey how we feel. People respond with varying degrees of emotional intelligence and boundaries. In reality most people are very good at it. For thousand of years it keep us alive.

I don’t dispute that narcissists or ego driven people will seek out those who lack boundaries and emotional intelligence. But these people aren’t something called empaths. They are people whose emotional and behavioural calibration is off.

Also there’s a grandiosity associated with claiming special skills. Even more so to make up a name for it. Especially when behaviour suggests you really don’t have those skills or an ability to use them. This is the narcissistic behaviour.

It empathy isn’t about reading peoples emotions. Being able to read emotions and offer support is sympathy. Empathy is to actually feel those emotions. It’s like being a sponge and you soak up the feelings around you and feel them yourself.

When my DP is stressed and recounts a story about his day, it makes me anxious and my heart beats faster. If he’s upset my throat tightens and my eyes well up. For me that’s empathy.

I’ve also read that when you subconsciously mirror other people that shows empathy, and I’ve realised that if someone else yawns I do too. If someone clears their throat I do the same. It makes me quite uncomfortable now that I’ve noticed I do it but I can’t help myself! (Have just cleared my throat writing this ) so I think there’s something highly suggestible in those who declare themselves empaths. It’s almost like being a chameleon. I can have my own thing going on, but as soon as someone comes into my space with their own issue, I melt away and become an extension of them.

I think claiming to be ‘an empath’ with its suggestions of super- sensitivity and unusual powers of feeling is definitely a more glamorous/positive self-description that ‘Actually, I’m just not very good at regulating my emotions so that if a friend tells me about her cancer diagnosis/pregnancy loss/bereavement, I am completely overwhelmed’ or ‘I’m hyper vigilant because of an abusive past, so I register other people’s feelings to a disabling extent’.

Actually, for me, being an empath absolutely does NOT mean that.
I’m never overwhelmed when people share that sort of stuff. Partly because I tend to have a much more down to Earth approach to things. And partly because of my job (I wouldn’t be able to do it if I was getting overwhelemed and emotional each time someone is sharing news like that!).

I also do not have an abusive past at all. Quite the opposite tbh.

For me the most obvious it translate is the fact people open up to their issues wo thinking about it. In some ways, they over share (and not because I’m digging and pushing them to do so!) and wouldn’t say those things to other people.
And yes I can also tell how people are feeling but not from looking at their face expression. I can tell for example when dH is angry and he is in the garage (and I’m upstairs having a shower…..). I’m not sure WHAT is telling me what’s going on, but I can physically feel it. 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

It seems that many people who are ‘empathy’ have issues with boundaries. Again, that has never been my issue etc….

My probably psychotic ex (I say probably as I am not a psychiatrist nor medical professional), claimed to be an empath and also a feminist. He was also a multiple -times rapist, an attacker of his own mother, had a fondness for using broken bottles on people and broke many bones in my body. He broke into my home and also set fire to people's sheds - for fun.
Yes, he claimed to be an EMPATH. Dumb nasty fucker.