To not want to say my pronouns

[Bamechage]

Completely happy to get roasted here and for people to tell me I’m wrong but I’m a woman and my name is always mistaken for a man as I shorten it to unisex. I enjoy the ambiguity of it and that in written correspondence people don’t know. Where I work have made it mandatory and I understand it’s to be more inclusive but I liked people not knowing. Have I completely missed the point here and aibu?

@Bombaloorina

Disabled people's rights aren't being respected, so transgender people shouldn't be respected either.

Try a more affirmative take on it:

If only people gave as much of a shit about disabled people’s rights as they did about transgender rights.

I fully agree with this statement! But put that way it doesn't equate to opposing trans rights.

But put that way it doesn't equate to opposing trans rights.

What rights don't trans people have? And which of their rights are impacted by people adding pronouns to their emails?

And what rights specifically are being 'opposed'?

Maybe put he/her or go French with elle/ lui, or keep it simple - it.

If I refused to put my favourite Saint in my email signature, would I be erasing Christians/denying the existence of Christians/ opposing religious rights?

@IveGotASongThatllGetOnYNerves

Say you don't identify as having any pronouns.

100%

I would say that "I do not disclose personal information such as my health, gender or disability other than officially & confidentiality to HR".

I would put a sentence that says I have no preference for my pronoun and people are welcome to use whatever they choose.

True, and people may say much worse when talking about you, rather than too you, than using the wrong pronoun!

I would say that "I do not disclose personal information such as health, gender or disability other than officially & confidentiality to HR".

@Macncheeseballs Mr. and Mrs. are titles, not pronouns... pronouns are words like he, she, they, them.

Titles come with their own problems (why do they indicate marital status for women and not men? Why are male teachers traditionally called Sir while female teachers are called Miss?) ... anyway it doesn't matter if they're on bank cards, I can't remember the last time a cashier looked at mine because I'm tapping it or putting it in the machine myself (or just using apple pay 90% of the time).

My name is always a woman's name, but In your shoes, OP, I'd refuse to provide pronouns as I'd prefer people not knowing if I were male or female and treating me differently on account of my sex.

Pronouns are BS and anyone with an obsession with them is a self centered bore who has clearly had nothing to worry about in their life if they focus on that bollocks and needs to get over themselves, I want absolutely nothing to do with anyone who has a hissy fit over pronouns its a massive red flag.

Stompythedinosaur, You seem to be returning to the thread so perhaps you could explain why putting somebody in a position where they may feel forced to declare a gender with which they don’t identify is inclusive.

@merrymouse

Stompythedinosaur, You seem to be returning to the thread so perhaps you could explain why putting somebody in a position where they may feel forced to declare a gender with which they don’t identify is inclusive.

It's an issue of privilege. The privileged group don't require, and aren't entitled to, the same level or protection, because they are not being oppressed.

So I am less worried about discrimination against men than I am about discrimination against women.

And I'm less worried about discrimination against white people than I am about discrimination against people of colour.

And I'm less worried about discrimination against people who feel they are the gender they were allocated at birth than I am against discrimination against trans people.

When you are already in a stronger position, the onus is on you to give a little to the oppressed group.

The privileged group don't require, and aren't entitled to, the same level or protection, because they are not being oppressed.

Which is not a helpful way to think when you are dealing with two different oppressed groups, one of whom can only benefit from a measure at the expense of the other. Listing pronouns calls attention to sex or gender, and calling attention to sex or gender has known oppressive effects on (for example) women who work in male-dominated environments.

There's no way round it except to start playing more-oppressed-than-thou and that never ends well.

The privileged group don't require, and aren't entitled to, the same level or protection, because they are not being oppressed.

I don’t think you read my question. I’m referring to anyone who doesn’t identify with societal gender expectations whether they would describe that as being trans or something else.

To put it bluntly, the policy you support forces people to out themselves publically and professionally or lie.

So I am less worried about discrimination against men than I am about discrimination against women.

Apparently not or you wouldn’t be suggesting that women invite discrimination in their email signature.

@merrymouse

The privileged group don't require, and aren't entitled to, the same level or protection, because they are not being oppressed.

I don’t think you read my question. I’m referring to anyone who doesn’t identify with societal gender expectations whether they would describe that as being trans or something else.

To put it bluntly, the policy you support forces people to out themselves publically and professionally or lie.

I'm not sure you've read my answer either! I actually don't support a policy of forcing people to declare their pronouns, and I haven't said I do.

What I oppose is privileged people not considering doing so for the good of others.

Most trans people I know, and most trans groups as far as I'm aware, do support people declaring pronounces in order to normalise when trans people do this, and it is no huge deal for me to do as asked, so I do.

@AmaryllisNightAndDay

The privileged group don't require, and aren't entitled to, the same level or protection, because they are not being oppressed.

Which is not a helpful way to think when you are dealing with two different oppressed groups, one of whom can only benefit from a measure at the expense of the other. Listing pronouns calls attention to sex or gender, and calling attention to sex or gender has known oppressive effects on (for example) women who work in male-dominated environments.

There's no way round it except to start playing more-oppressed-than-thou and that never ends well.

We are all part of multiple groups, I can be both oppressed as a woman and privileged as a white person.

It is dangerous to assume yourself to always be the victim as a member of one oppressed group.

I know it is a popular opinion on mn that trans people are somehow trying to harm women, but I don't believe that. I am not harmed in any way by another person's gender identity.

I am not harmed in any way by another person's gender identity.

You are when their gender identity takes precedence over biological sex and you find yourself in prison with a violent male-bodied sex offender.

@merrymouse

So I am less worried about discrimination against men than I am about discrimination against women.

Apparently not or you wouldn’t be suggesting that women invite discrimination in their email signature.

I don't believe that omitting pronouns from an email signature will reduce the discrimination a women experiences.

For starters there are so many other ways to find out someone's gender e.g. title, images on a website, calling them, the subtle differences in language used by different genders (e.g. all the "softening" words women feel they have to use).

I think it is really tiresome to be called unfeminist because I disagree with you on this issue. There isn't only one correct way to be a feminist.

@EishetChayil

I am not harmed in any way by another person's gender identity.

You are when their gender identity takes precedence over biological sex and you find yourself in prison with a violent male-bodied sex offender.

Are there any examples you can give me of a "male bodied sex offender" being given free access to women in a prison environment?

I worked in a prison for 5 years, and my experience is that there was a fair amount of thought and consideration as to how to keep the prisoners safe.

I currently work with young offenders (including transgender teens) and I similarly find there is quite careful consideration about how to accommodate the children to meet everyone's needs.

Ever heard of Karen White for starters?

@Norma27

Ever heard of Karen White for starters?

I hadn't, but I've read about her now. Thanks for the example.

There were clearly massive failing in this case and she was very obviously put into the wrong environment. There is no way I would try to support that choice. But I don't think she was dangerous because she was transgender, I would so no sexual offender should have access to further potential victims in prison.

Exactly as @NavigatingAdolescence said - it isn't mandatory. We are supposed to add our pronouns too, I'm still waiting to be called out on it.

People who “don’t identify with the gender allocated to them at birth” - whatever that means - are not oppressed and shouldn’t feel entitled to claim the same or similar experiences to black or brown people. That is a huge liberty Stompy, to suggest that