To not want to say my pronouns

[Bamechage]

Completely happy to get roasted here and for people to tell me I’m wrong but I’m a woman and my name is always mistaken for a man as I shorten it to unisex. I enjoy the ambiguity of it and that in written correspondence people don’t know. Where I work have made it mandatory and I understand it’s to be more inclusive but I liked people not knowing. Have I completely missed the point here and aibu?

There was a very recent judicial review, brought by a female prisoner sexually assaulted by a transwoman in the female prison system, in which the Ministry of Justice admitted that they do not know how many transgender prisoners are in the female estate and have also admitted there have been other rapes and sexual assaults on females by transwomen prisoners.

There is also the issue that a huge majority of transwoman prisoners in the female estate are there due having been convicted of sexual assault.

For anyone interested in further information, the website Keep Prisons Single Sex have very useful resources.

@Siameasy

People who “don’t identify with the gender allocated to them at birth” - whatever that means - are not oppressed and shouldn’t feel entitled to claim the same or similar experiences to black or brown people. That is a huge liberty Stompy, to suggest that

It's tricky and divisive to try to have a hierarchy of oppression. I think it is unnecessary.

The equalities act puts all the protected characteristics on equal footing, which seems reasonable to me.

When I'm asked my title I tell them just to use my name! Thankfully I design my own email signature so no issues there

For starters there are so many other ways to find out someone's gender e.g. title, images on a website, calling them, the subtle differences in language used by different genders (e.g. all the "softening" words women feel they have to use).

Then why do we need to state them on our emails?

There were clearly massive failing in this case and she was very obviously put into the wrong environment. There is no way I would try to support that choice. But I don't think she was dangerous because she was transgender, I would so no sexual offender should have access to further potential victims in prison.

Karen White is not a she.

(hee/haw)

‘The equalities act puts all the protected characteristics on equal footing, which seems reasonable to me.’

But this entirely contradicts what you just said about being less concerned about the rights of men.

Men’s rights are no less important under the equality act than women’s.

Tell them sharing your pronouns is triggering for you.

Here:

It's an issue of privilege. The privileged group don't require, and aren't entitled to, the same level or protection, because they are not being oppressed.

‘So I am less worried about discrimination against men than I am about discrimination against women.’

That is in contradiction to what you describe as reasonable about the Equality Act.

*It's an issue of privilege. The privileged group don't require, and aren't entitled to, the same level or protection, because they are not being oppressed.

So I am less worried about discrimination against men than I am about discrimination against women.

And I'm less worried about discrimination against white people than I am about discrimination against people of colour.

And I'm less worried about discrimination against people who feel they are the gender they were allocated at birth than I am against discrimination against trans people.

When you are already in a stronger position, the onus is on you to give a little to the oppressed group.*

I agree with this. Which means we need to give women the same level of protection as trans men and women. Gender ideology is removing protections for women - hence our concerns about it.

*We are all part of multiple groups, I can be both oppressed as a woman and privileged as a white person.

It is dangerous to assume yourself to always be the victim as a member of one oppressed group.*

Also agree - hence we also need to bear in mind that trans people do sometimes victimise others (inc women).

With regards to transwomen in female prisons - do you not care whether the women feel safe? or whether this triggers them? Does care for people feelings only extend to people who've grown up with male privilege?

@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse

YANBU.

When asked to give my pronouns at work:

1. I pointed out sexism www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/what-happened-when-a-man-signed-work-emails-using-a-female-name-for-a-week_n_58c2ce53e4b054a0ea6a4066?ri18n=true
2. I mentioned Stereotype threat en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat
3. I said that I am gender critical, that I don't believe in gender and stated that it is a protected belief

I don't think they'll ask me again.

No I don't think they will. Excellent. Well done.

Amazing answer! Best laugh I've had all day!

@Thorgod

Amazing answer! Best laugh I've had all day!

Ffs. To the pp who said pronouns should be fark/off

whatiswrong agree strongly.

@GeorgiaMcGraw

It really shouldn't be mandatory. There is nothing inclusive about forcing people to declare their gender identity in every email they make at work.

True

And I personally hate calling people Mr, Mrs, Ms....... Dear also doesn't make it any better

We should come up with a way to AVOID these things, not make them ever more present

Surely if someone has changed their gender, they have changed their name.

My perception is that gender ideology is nothing more than a set of recessive stereotypes, so if someone has decided they no longer identify as a man and are now Shelia instead, it’s kind of obvious that they’re she/her, and I don’t need it spelt out for me.

If someone needs everyone to refer to them as they/them when they’re not around, because they don’t identify as either male or female, then knock yourself out with your email signature.

The banal self-absorption of it all is next level.

For starters there are so many other ways to find out someone's gender e.g. title, images on a website, calling them, the subtle differences in language used by different genders (e.g. all the "softening" words women feel they have to use).

No. You can find out their sex but you can only make stereotypical assumptions about gender. If they announce pronouns they are endorsing your assumptions.

I certainly disagree with your beliefs about feminism if your arguments are poor.

I'm afraid that I can't respect anything being said on this issue by someone who had never heard of Karen White and, when they do, insists that he is a woman.

But I don't think she was dangerous because she was transgender, I would so no sexual offender should have access to further potential victims in prison.

Only 5% of the prison population is female and of this about 3% are in prison for sexual offences.

About 20% of the male prison population is in prison for sexual offences. Under self ID they all have the right to be housed in the female estate, should they choose.

Where are they going to go?

If you really knew what people think on Mumsnet, you would be familiar with Karen White and you would know that women are not worried about trans people, they are worried about men. Self ID does not make a distinction.

@DrSbaitso

I'm afraid that I can't respect anything being said on this issue by someone who had never heard of Karen White and, when they do, insists that he is a woman.

Thanks for sharing that - were you expecting me to be devastated?

I'm aware that there's a body of mners who'd prefer to silence those of us who support trans rights, but I have as much right to be here as you do.

Thanks for sharing that - were you expecting me to be devastated?

Believe me, I am expecting very very little.

@merrymouse

But I don't think she was dangerous because she was transgender, I would so no sexual offender should have access to further potential victims in prison.

Only 5% of the prison population is female and of this about 3% are in prison for sexual offences.

About 20% of the male prison population is in prison for sexual offences. Under self ID they all have the right to be housed in the female estate, should they choose.

Where are they going to go?

If you really knew what people think on Mumsnet, you would be familiar with Karen White and you would know that women are not worried about trans people, they are worried about men. Self ID does not make a distinction.

It's similar to the tricky placement problem of placing women who sexually offend against women, though, surely? A group that is very small, but needs careful managent to protect the rest of the prison population.

@merrymouse

For starters there are so many other ways to find out someone's gender e.g. title, images on a website, calling them, the subtle differences in language used by different genders (e.g. all the "softening" words women feel they have to use).

No. You can find out their sex but you can only make stereotypical assumptions about gender. If they announce pronouns they are endorsing your assumptions.

I certainly disagree with your beliefs about feminism if your arguments are poor.

Sure, of course. No problem with disagreement at all (I find your arguments similarly poor btw). It was the comment about saying I was not a feminist that I objected to. I am, just following a slightly different ideology to you.

I am, just following a slightly different ideology to you.

A form of feminism that reduces womanhood to a "feeling" and makes a woman out of a male sex offender who wasn't even legally female when he insisted on being incarcerated with women so he could attack them.

Good job.

It's similar to the tricky placement problem of placing women who sexually offend against women, though, surely? A group that is very small, but needs careful managent to protect the rest of the prison population.

No, it is not similar at all, for the rather basic reason that male people aren't female people, and there is a particular risk dynamic and offending pattern that is highly relevant here. A female sex offender also isn't physically capable of rape, as defined by penile penetration and all the associated risks of that. There's also the issue of how women feel about being banged up with a man calling himself Karen, and why their feelings - indeed their safety - matter less than Karen's wish to have his feminine identity (hardy har har) validated in a female space as equivalent to actually being female.