To think becoming a first time mother in your 60s is the height of selfishness?

[CounsellorTroi]

www.vogue.co.uk/arts-and-lifestyle/article/julia-peyton-jones

Had a baby alone at 64. She’ll be 80 years old when her daughter is 16. There’s a good chance she’ll be dead by the time the child is 30. She could well die before the child reaches 25. So very selfish.

Extremely selfish. I had a child at nearly 42 - I thought it was fine at the time. I was fit and healthy and looked younger. 10 years later, less fit and less healthy, I do feel guilty. I worry about DC being lonely as an adult. His father is older than me.

Imagine 77 year old DM at her school play or sports day

Why not? Would you exclude Granny from her grandchild's school play?

There are real reasons for worrying about the situation described here, but not that one!

When do we STOP telling women what to do with their FUCKING BODIES???

She used someone else’s body. And there doesn’t appear to have been any FUCKNG involved.

Why not? Would you exclude Granny from her grandchild's school play?
The 77 year old wouldn't be Granny, it would be Mammy.
The Mother will be the same age as Robert Durst when the DC is 10.
I imagine he'd a rich expensive lifestyle, ill health can happen to anyone, the chances of dementia increases hugely as we age.

Bodily autonomy is really important, and it needs to extend to women making choices to be surrogates, based on their economic need. Because a woman who does this to escape poverty maybe isn't exercising true autonomy. Just as sex workers aren't. When rich women do it for altruistic reasons, and there's no financial pressure for a woman to choose this, then it might be more arguable to consider it's a question of free choice.

I also don't think it's always selfish to have children - it's a biological imperative.

@futureghost

In many societies, older age is considered something to be revered and older generations are regarded far more highly than here in the West

Oh please! Lay off the manipulative ' you just don't value the old!' crap.
If you have been paying any attention at all to anything people have said on this thread you will know that is not what is behind people's arguments at all. Disagree if you want but don't be so dishonest as to lie in your (mis)representations of what people are saying.

Are you able to discuss these sorts of things without getting so irate and aggressive @futureghost? Posters are allowed to have another opinion, or even play devil's advocate on something, without being spoken to as if they are a child or lying. Maybe you need to accept that your opinion is not the only one?

@TableFlowerss

Just realised she didn’t actually carry it herself. Well at least that’s one good thing about this.

I think it makes it even worse. Some rich, entitled, white woman buys a baby after making a likely poor young woman carry it for her.

@Alonelonelylonersbadidea

It's selfish having kids full stop. And just a bit dumb ass (I say that as a mother).

But...

When do we STOP telling women what to do with their FUCKING BODIES???

Is there an age limit drawn up by society, (as opposed to nature)? She's got the money and wherewithal, who am I to tell her what she is doing wrong as opposed to somebody who is 30?

Come on. Of course there is a selfish side to having children. But most of us think carefully about whether we can be good parents. If you know beyond any reasonable doubt that your health and mobility will start to deteriorate during your child's teenage years, and there's a not insignificant chance you will develop dementia, is it really fair to bring a child into the world as a single parent? None of this applies to somebody who is 30, single or otherwise.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g
Clearly she did think about it very hard.
And probably has a lot more to offer than most women,

And why do people keep forgetting she has an actual father younger who is involved.
Do fathers not count

It's selfish having kids full stop. And just a bit dumb ass (I say that as a mother).
All animals procreate it is in our nature.
We wouldn't be here otherwise.

And probably has a lot more to offer than most women

More money, yes. Other than that, nothing. I predict Pia will be seriously fucked up in 20 years time, whether or not her 90 year old mother is still alive.

@EmeraldShamrock

It's selfish having kids full stop. And just a bit dumb ass (I say that as a mother). All animals procreate it is in our nature. We wouldn't be here otherwise.

I’m not sure you can describe obtaining a newborn by way of surrogacy and a donor egg as procreation.

Out of interest where should the line be drawn for obtaining a newborn baby? 70? 75? 80?

When do we STOP telling women what to do with their FUCKING BODIES???

She did nothing with her body. She used another woman’s body.

I'm not sure you can describe obtaining a newborn by way of surrogacy and a donor egg as procreation.
I wasn't referring to surrogacy, I was referring to the post = It's selfish having kids full stop.
It isn't selfish it is a natural urge during child bearing years.
I am personally against surrogacy and as I said earlier it isn't very different from olden times when the babies of unmarried mothers were sold for profit.
We know how that turned out.

Father is involved, yes. Huge difference between living with a parent and seeing one occasionally. Odd situation, as presumably he is her bio father and they applied for parental responsibility jointly. The mother has no genetic link to the daughter at all, but she is and always has been the primary parent.

I cannot see how this could not be selfish.

I am astonished at the posters saying otherwise.

The poor child.

My 20 year old is perfectly independent and still needs me. I cannot imagine being 84 and being able to support her emotionally or practically.

I still need my mum now and I’m 35!

Watching my mum deal with her elderly, unwell parents (my beloved grandparents) about 15-20 years ago was heart wrenching enough and I wasn’t nearly as involved with it as she was as I was still at school/at uni.

The idea of needing to do it myself at ages 15-20 is horrendous

I think anyone deliberately having a child at that age is thinking more about their own needs than the child’s. That said, if they are super fit and healthy and have genes that suggest longevity, may be it’s not so selfish. So much can go wrong later in life though.

Sorry to hear about the loss of your mum @LoislovesStewie

I’m really surprised at the vitriol on this thread. Not at all surprised that people are raising eyebrows, but amazed that people are getting actually het up about one woman’s decision as if it’s a personal slight somehow. Each to their own?

@RowanAlong

I’m really surprised at the vitriol on this thread. Not at all surprised that people are raising eyebrows, but amazed that people are getting actually het up about one woman’s decision as if it’s a personal slight somehow. Each to their own?

How dare we care about an issue where women are being exploited into selling their bodies for financial gain and a newborn is ripped from its mothers arms to provide an elderly lady with a hobby in her retirement. It’s morally repugnant.

And the welfare of children is something we should all be concerned with, no?

Why can't we stop judging what women do with their bodies?

@IceLace100

Why can't we stop judging what women do with their bodies?

Oh do keep up. She used someone else’s body.

And the welfare of children is something we should all be concerned with, no?

I would be more concerned about the welfare of all the children born to and raised by the many rampant covid deniers, and those who consider the elderly and unwell collateral damage, and all those who have expressed blatant sociopathic tendencies in response to this pandemic, myself.

A surrogate arrangement is hardly "ripping a child from its mothers arms"; it is a commercial arrangement involving a willing participant with a degree of choice.

@milkyaqua

And the welfare of children is something we should all be concerned with, no?

I would be more concerned about the welfare of all the children born to and raised by the many rampant covid deniers, and those who consider the elderly and unwell collateral damage, and all those who have expressed blatant sociopathic tendencies in response to this pandemic, myself.

A surrogate arrangement is hardly "ripping a child from its mothers arms"; it is a commercial arrangement involving a willing participant with a degree of choice.

I can’t say I’m horrendously upset about covid deniers - don’t give them much thought. I am concerned about children being brought into the world without a single thought for their welfare though.

Doesn’t stop me being concerned with other morally repugnant issues.

A commercial arrangement? You could say the same for prostitution. Is it really a choice if a woman is trying to feed her family or pay off debts but feels the need to sell her body to achieve this? And it does rip a newborn from its mothers arms. Into someone’s arms who’s paid for the baby. Disgusting