To think becoming a first time mother in your 60s is the height of selfishness?

[CounsellorTroi]

www.vogue.co.uk/arts-and-lifestyle/article/julia-peyton-jones

Had a baby alone at 64. She’ll be 80 years old when her daughter is 16. There’s a good chance she’ll be dead by the time the child is 30. She could well die before the child reaches 25. So very selfish.

I actually think this thread is ridiculous @CounsellorTroi although it was bound to be started by someone.

There are numerous ways of being a 'bad ' parent. Posters have described those and anyone here knows them all as they crop up daily.

Being older and dying perhaps when you child is 25 or 30 is not IMO one of the worst.

I haven't seen anyone here say what they think is an acceptable age for a mother to die.

I come back to the same point which none of the critics of JPJ seem to answer.

Is parenting simply measured in the years you have with your child, or the time and love you give them when you are around?

I'm sure they will all say 'Both'.

But that doesn't mean there is no room for women to do things differently to you.

In many societies, older age is considered something to be revered and older generations are regarded far more highly than here in the West.

I'm happy to say that an acceptable age for a lone parent to die is 21. Being orphaned in your twenties is very sad (though money makes it easier). Being orphaned as a pre-teen is catastrophic.

Threads about older parents always get bogged down in how tough it is to be teased at the school gate or to have out of touch parents or for your father not to be able to play football with you or for your mum not to be there at your wedding or to have to manage care for your parents while you're only twenty three, and those are all tough but IMO none of them are good enough reasons not to have children.

But dying or being incapacitated by stroke or dementia while your child is in their early teens is indeed one of the worst blows you can deal them.

People are selfish all the time
This is one of the less selfish things I’ve seen a parent do

Maybe but she will probably be a better parent in that shorter space of time than some are in a lifetime.

@HermioneKipper

Yes and she’s said she wouldn’t wish much older parents on anyone either.

If she didn’t exist at all she wouldn’t know about it.

Just because things can be done doesn’t mean they should be.

Surrogacy is another subject I totally disagree with. Rich elderly lady buys the use of the womb of a poor, younger woman to grow and birth her a baby. Which is then ripped from its mother to pass over to an elderly woman. Who’ll mostly use nannies to raise it. Abhorrent.

My mum is about the same age as this lady. And is still working full time plus fit and healthy. There’s no way she could look after a baby full time. She looks after my toddlers one morning a week and can only just about manage.

The poor child in this situation is all I can say

I don’t buy this. Your friend hates her life so much because she has an older parent that she wishes it into oblivion?!

Unless she’s suffering from debilitating depression or some horrors happened to her (beyond having an elderly parent to take care of now - which would happen at some point to most people anyway), I would think she could reframe it and be glad she’s alive and has her own family now.

My parents had me at an average age. My mother died when I was in my early 30s. I know others have said this upthread, but I wouldn’t have resented her if she’d had me at age 40+ and died when I was young. I am just glad I am here and she was here and that she did her best.

Well @TheNatureOfTheCatastrophe there are about 800,000 young carers in the UK and most of them will not be taking care of elderly parents.
Your post will likely make for quite hurtful reading for friends and relatives of parents with those conditions and and other similar life-limiting illnesses who have children in that age range.

I don't think she was pregnant and gave birth to the baby - if you read the article she is very vague about how she came to become a mother. Not that that changes anything.

@futureghost

If it were me, if I were that child, I would rather get the chance to exist

I always find this a really odd argument. Souls aren't hanging out waiting for a chance to be born. Or do you think all women should spend their lives doing nothing but procreating to give more not-existing-yet children a chance of life?

I tried to reply to this but I don’t think it posted, so I’ll try again.

That is not what I am saying at all. Of course souls aren’t hanging around waiting to be born and of course women should be able to choose to have abortions if they want to (I did - amazing decision that I am so happy I made).

What I AM saying is that this kid can’t pick to have a younger parent. She can’t pick anything. She’s here by design and lots of money.

But the bottom line is, she’s here now and lucky her - so why a whole thread with people on it arguing that she shouldn’t be?

Maybe but she will probably be a better parent in that shorter space of time than some are in a lifetime.

I'm intrigued why she is a better parent at 69 than she would have been at 59 for example? She had had a well paid job and presumably known the supportive friends she chose as god parents.

The first paragraph of the article almost presents it as "retiree enjoys new challenge" as if she had just started to learn mandarin, gone back to uni or begun paddleboarding.

My parents are a similar age. They’re ok. Still reasonably active, my dad still works full time. Should they have a newborn at their age. No, absolutely not! They’d think it was ridiculous. They’ve just packed my youngest dsis off to do her masters and making the journey to the other side of the country has taken it out of them. Imagine them having to do it in 20 years time!!

You can start your 60s being very healthy but be all but incapacitated by the time you get to 70. MIL was in amazing shape at 64, now at 78 she is very noticeably forgetful. Imagine if she had a 14 year old! I’m sorry but no, just no for a man or a woman. There’s a reason a woman’s fertile years come to an end usually in her 40s. Maybe we should listen to nature and stop trying to cheat it.

There are more children brought up by grandparents or foster carer, thousands. Because they had fucking useless parents

Yeah, one of my neighbours brought up her grandson when his teenage mum rejected him. Only difference was she was 42 at the time!

@snowqu33n

A president that had a child at around the same age as this mother so they have that in common.

How much parenting do you think he does?

Maybe but she will probably be a better parent in that shorter space of time than some are in a lifetime

None of us can know what sort of parent she will be. My own thoughts are that this is someone who had other priorities her whole life (nothing wrong with making a choice to have career over having a child) but now that she has retired has chosen to have the child after she's finished the other more important stuff. Tbh that does not scream 'definitely brilliant mother material' to me' Maybe she will be a good Mom, but its hardly been her main goal, or secondary goal or third goal in life to be a Mother has it? Its pretty much the last thing on her bucket list.
And if she is a good mom, well there was nothing that would stopped her being a good mom to a child for decades longer if she has chosen to,. But she didn't chose to, cos there was other stuff she wanted to do more.

In many societies, older age is considered something to be revered and older generations are regarded far more highly than here in the West

Oh please! Lay off the manipulative ' you just don't value the old!' crap.
If you have been paying any attention at all to anything people have said on this thread you will know that is not what is behind people's arguments at all. Disagree if you want but don't be so dishonest as to lie in your (mis)representations of what people are saying.

And 60yr old Dads? Are they selfish too?

@PeriChristmas

And 60yr old Dads? Are they selfish too?

We’ve done that one already. And yes, they are.

In many societies, older age is considered something to be revered and older generations are regarded far more highly than here in the West

What a load of rubbish!

Older people should of course be respected and revered. Does that mean they should be the parent of a newborn…,,,,? I think not.

@PeriChristmas

And 60yr old Dads? Are they selfish too?

In short, yes.

[quote Limejuiceandrum]@TableFlowerss
What’s that got to do with being a parent?

Also why would you massively project your life experience on a woman and a family structure whom you know nothing about.

The double standards on mn are mad sometimes, it’s selfish to have a child full stop. No one needs to have one. The age one has a child is one of the least bad parts about the whole circus.[/quote]
Because it’s selfish! Everything about it, I was just pointing out one aspect that’s problematic from my experience.

If you genuinely think carrying a baby, in your mid 60’s is something to applaud, then I suspect you’re in very much in the minority.

And your double standards scenarios are moot, as people generally have different opinions about having kids etc… but this tops the lot and I think you’ll find most people will agree it’s absolutely bonkers.

No way would a company in Britain allow this to happen. IVF fit someone in the mid 60’s

Just realised she didn’t actually carry it herself. Well at least that’s one good thing about this.

Just because lots of other parents are doing a terrible job, it doesn't make this decision okay. It isn't a race to the bottom.

There's also a big difference between older people fostering kids who already exist or grandparents raising babies because something has gone horribly wrong in their family and deliberately having a newborn at 65!

@garlictwist

I don't think she was pregnant and gave birth to the baby - if you read the article she is very vague about how she came to become a mother. Not that that changes anything.

IVF with surrogate -I thought she was implying.

@futureghost

Maybe but she will probably be a better parent in that shorter space of time than some are in a lifetime

None of us can know what sort of parent she will be. My own thoughts are that this is someone who had other priorities her whole life (nothing wrong with making a choice to have career over having a child) but now that she has retired has chosen to have the child after she's finished the other more important stuff. Tbh that does not scream 'definitely brilliant mother material' to me' Maybe she will be a good Mom, but its hardly been her main goal, or secondary goal or third goal in life to be a Mother has it? Its pretty much the last thing on her bucket list.
And if she is a good mom, well there was nothing that would stopped her being a good mom to a child for decades longer if she has chosen to,. But she didn't chose to, cos there was other stuff she wanted to do more.

In a nutshell!

The article in The Times says she was seen in London not long before the baby was born. It's not stated explicitly but the only way I can make sense of the wording is that she was visibly not pregnant, and given she was 64 at the time, how could she have been, without an enormous amount of public attention?

It's selfish having kids full stop. And just a bit dumb ass (I say that as a mother).

But...

When do we STOP telling women what to do with their FUCKING BODIES???

Is there an age limit drawn up by society, (as opposed to nature)? She's got the money and wherewithal, who am I to tell her what she is doing wrong as opposed to somebody who is 30?