Accepting DSDad’s religious beliefs.

[Niffler92]

My step dad has always been a believer and attended church. His last church was lovely and open, all guitars and clapping. He’s started going to a new church who are homophobic as a gay person I find this hard, they campaign against equal marriage, adoption for gay people, gay families and education about gay issues in schools. This is very hard for me as a gay person who campaigned for these rights, he also has niece who has a baby with her wife.

They also are anti choice and anti sex and babies out of marriage. Oh and preach about having as many babies as ‘god gives you’. In his previous church I always said my DD could go if she wanted to, now it’d be a cold day in hell before I left her go to THAT church!

My mum condones and excuses what they preach by saying he doesn’t understand that that’s what they believe.

How do I reconcile my own beliefs with what his church preaches?

If they don’t think it’s discrimination they don’t understand the meaning of the word.

@Bitofachinwag

Well yeah that's basically what I said. They can't discriminate against gay people by refusing to serve them. Not quite. They don't think it's discrimination.

But it is. Not serving someone based on their sexual orientation is discrimination.

Except OP's DSD's church actively campaigned against the legalisation of equal marriage

But people campaign all the time for and against different matters. Who determines which side campaigning is 'right'?

Also the church is campaigning, not OP's DSD

@Mumoblue

If they don’t think it’s discrimination they don’t understand the meaning of the word.

They likely don’t think its discrimination because their homophobic themselves, just like racists don’t think they’re racist.

@mustlovegin

Except OP's DSD's church actively campaigned against the legalisation of equal marriage

But people campaign all the time for and against different matters. Who determines which side campaigning is 'right'?

Also the church is campaigning, not OP's DSD

The poster I was quoting claimed that she thinks the Biblical rules forbidding homosexuality only apply to Christians. But the free Church clearly take a different stance.

BTW, you still haven't answered my question about whether racists and racist beliefs should be respected.

@mustlovegin

Do you really not comprehend why OP, who is gay, might have a problem with her step father belonging to a church that teaches that it is wrong to be gay and that actively campaigned to stop gay people from being able to get married or have children?

@SoloISland

Sorry but this is ever so disingenuous:

For Christians that means no sexual activity outside Christian marriage and Christian marriage is between one man and one woman. FOR CHRISTIANS

Christian groups like the church OP's DSD belongs to actively campaign against gay marriage. Not against gay marriage 'FOR CHRISTIANS' but against gay marriage as an entire concept.

Stand by your beliefs and have the courage of your convictions - if you believe it is wrong to have sex and / or get married then you should feel protected enough by your god and resolute enough in your belief to say that you believe it is wrong, full stop.

It's frustrating when people quote the Bible to make a point but then say... but it's up to you if you do that or not. Well of course it's up to individuals, but be honest that you believe it's wrong for those individuals to do it too and that they will go to hell for it.

I'm so relieved sometimes to be atheist so I don't have the exercise the cognitive dissonance required for faith. That's the thing I guess - genuinely having a religious requires you to literally have faith that something unprovable is true. My mum is one of the best people I know and she is a believer. She doesn't believe it's wrong to be gay. Because she cares about gay people just as much as straight people. And she trusts that her god would too. Even if I don't share her faith, I share her humanity.

But people campaign all the time for and against different matters. Who determines which side campaigning is 'right'?

What a strange question as if there are official goodie and baddie roles that everyone adheres to. Each of us as individuals decide which 'side' campaigning is right or wrong in our view.

Thankfully on this subject the law agrees that people gay have just as much right to the legal protection and status of marriage as straight people.

Can you honestly not see which side of that particular campaign OP, as a gay person, would determine is 'right' in her view?!

Can you honestly not see which side of that particular campaign OP, as a gay person, would determine is 'right' in her view?!

Of course I can see that and I understand the OP's concern. But I don't agree with PPs suggesting to go NC with the DSD as he hasn't done anything wrong or even expressed any opinions at all. And even if he had different views to the OP, both could exercise tolerance, perhaps avoid discussing the issue and be civil to each other.

Thankfully on this subject the law agrees that people gay have just as much right to the legal protection and status of marriage as straight people

Of course, and it is also unlawful to discriminate on the basis of religion. There isn't a hierarchy of protected characteristics. They are all equally protected

@mustlovegin

Can you honestly not see which side of that particular campaign OP, as a gay person, would determine is 'right' in her view?!

Of course I can see that and I understand the OP's concern. But I don't agree with PPs suggesting to go NC with the DSD as he hasn't done anything wrong or even expressed any opinions at all. And even if he had different views to the OP, both could exercise tolerance, perhaps avoid discussing the issue and be civil to each other.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, chances are it's a duck.

@mustlovegin

Thankfully on this subject the law agrees that people gay have just as much right to the legal protection and status of marriage as straight people

Of course, and it is also unlawful to discriminate on the basis of religion. There isn't a hierarchy of protected characteristics. They are all equally protected

Yes, and nobody of this thread is suggesting that people be discriminated against on the basis of religion, so what's you're point?

@mustlovegin

Can you honestly not see which side of that particular campaign OP, as a gay person, would determine is 'right' in her view?!

Of course I can see that and I understand the OP's concern. But I don't agree with PPs suggesting to go NC with the DSD as he hasn't done anything wrong or even expressed any opinions at all. And even if he had different views to the OP, both could exercise tolerance, perhaps avoid discussing the issue and be civil to each other.

Yes, maybe he doesn't agree with the teachings or actions of the church he's now part of. But if he is, it's perfectly reasonable that OP might not want to be around someone who thinks that way about her.

Again, would you be defending racist beliefs in the same way?

@mustlovegin

Thankfully on this subject the law agrees that people gay have just as much right to the legal protection and status of marriage as straight people

Of course, and it is also unlawful to discriminate on the basis of religion. There isn't a hierarchy of protected characteristics. They are all equally protected

It's not legal discrimination to not want a relationship with someone who worships at a church that thinks your existence is a sin, a church that actively campaigns against you being allowed to marry and a church that actively campaigns against you being allowed to adopt children. That's not discrimination. It's self protection and OP would be perfectly reasonable in not wanting to share her life with a step father who worships at a church that believes in and actively campaigns for those things.

HarrietsChariot

“I think you need to accept that people are allowed to hold views that you disagree with or potentially find offensive. I have strong views on various "controversial" topics (eg the death penalty and firearms) but I'm happy to hear other peoples' points of view, provided they are reasonably polite and preferably have thought about why they have them. “

Not when legislation qualifies them as hate crimes. Homophobia is is an hate crime.

Specifically:

“The law recognises five types of hate crime on the basis of:

Race
Religion
Disability
Sexual orientation
Transgender identity
Any crime can be prosecuted as a hate crime if the offender has either:

demonstrated hostility based on race, religion, disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity
Or

been motivated by hostility based on race, religion, disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity”.

@mustlovegin

Can you honestly not see which side of that particular campaign OP, as a gay person, would determine is 'right' in her view?!

Of course I can see that and I understand the OP's concern. But I don't agree with PPs suggesting to go NC with the DSD as he hasn't done anything wrong or even expressed any opinions at all. And even if he had different views to the OP, both could exercise tolerance, perhaps avoid discussing the issue and be civil to each other.

And even if he had different views to the OP, both could exercise tolerance, perhaps avoid discussing the issue and be civil to each other.

Would you be tolerant of racist beliefs? Or other ones that are built on believing a group of people are less worthy / should have less rights?

Should my Jewish friends be tolerant of the beliefs of extended (non Jewish) family members who believe in anti Semitic conspiracy theories? Should they #bekind, be civil and just agree not to discuss the topic, even though they know the other people hold beliefs that are harmful to them?

Should a woman be civil and polite to a man who holds up sexism and chauvinism to avoid offending him and simply be tolerant of his beliefs and agree not to discuss them when they are fundamentally damaging to her existence?

It's funny how homophobia is always treated differently to other forms of hate speech.

If you're not homophobic, you don't attend a church that actively campaigns against gay marriage and gay adoption. If you believe gay marriage and gay adoption are equal rights that should be upheld, you wouldn't attend that church. He does.

An you not sit down with him and explain what you are worried about? My concern would be that as he starts to immerse himself in this church he may get indoctrinated into it. It's a very unusual stance for a church nowadays I have to say. I'm sure he can easily find another church with less extreme views

e hasn't done anything wrong or even expressed any opinions at all

He has though, loud and clear. If I regularly went to parties with the KKK, I'd be expressing an opinion, wouldn't I? Even if I didn't say a word. If you join a church with certain views you are letting the world know you are aligned with those views and at a minimum find them unobjectionable.

it’s the free church rather than fpc

From what I've heard they're not much better, although atleast they don't refer to gay people as sodomites on their official documents.

@MacNougat

But that view is regularly preached from the pulpit in a lot of free churches, so it’s hard to believe that the OP’s DSD doesn’t know what his church teaches about same-sex relationships.

[quote LizzieW1969]@MacNougat

But that view is regularly preached from the pulpit in a lot of free churches, so it’s hard to believe that the OP’s DSD doesn’t know what his church teaches about same-sex relationships.[/quote]
I agree.

@ILoveAGlassofFizzy

Why would your stepdad want your daughter to go to Sunday School?

He’s always wanted her to go to church, he’d love me and my mum to go as well but accepts we are lost causes.

She wants him to go to a Sunday school run by church that teaches that who her mum is is wrong?

Fuck no.

I get that there are differences of opinion on this and that it is an emotive topic but it is only emotive because our society has made who you are sexually attracted to an intrinsic part of your identity. This idea has never existed in any culture before the middle part of the 20th century.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that 'being gay' is a sin. Nowhere. In fact the Bible tells us to love everyone, no matter who they are, what they do or how they treat us. This isn't 'eros' love, or sexual love, but 'agape' love - the kind that is unselfish, forgives all, puts the other first, is sacrificial. Real love. Real love between anyone of any sex is positively encouraged in the Bible. It's sexual love that becomes problematic because of the potential consequences of sex, which include pregnancy/STDs/emotional hurt and cannot be entirely mitigated even with contraception/abortion. God wants to protect us from all this because He loves us.

The Bible does say that certain behaviours are sinful. All sinful means is that it goes against God's plan for our greater good. Having sex in any situation outside marriage is considered a sin, and that therefore includes homosexual sexual activity. It also includes straight couples who aren't married and there is no suggestion one is any worse than the other. The difference is that the Christian understanding of marriage doesn't allow for gay marriage. Disagree all you like but it's a gross exaggeration to say that the Bible denies the existence of gay people.

We are free to sin if we want. All of us do in some ways as we are all imperfect. And if you don't believe in God then you won't care if you do or not. But don't tell me that because I'm a Christian, I believe that 'being gay is a sin'. Because I don't..

@bathsh3ba

I get that there are differences of opinion on this and that it is an emotive topic but it is only emotive because our society has made who you are sexually attracted to an intrinsic part of your identity. This idea has never existed in any culture before the middle part of the 20th century.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that 'being gay' is a sin. Nowhere. In fact the Bible tells us to love everyone, no matter who they are, what they do or how they treat us. This isn't 'eros' love, or sexual love, but 'agape' love - the kind that is unselfish, forgives all, puts the other first, is sacrificial. Real love. Real love between anyone of any sex is positively encouraged in the Bible. It's sexual love that becomes problematic because of the potential consequences of sex, which include pregnancy/STDs/emotional hurt and cannot be entirely mitigated even with contraception/abortion. God wants to protect us from all this because He loves us.

The Bible does say that certain behaviours are sinful. All sinful means is that it goes against God's plan for our greater good. Having sex in any situation outside marriage is considered a sin, and that therefore includes homosexual sexual activity. It also includes straight couples who aren't married and there is no suggestion one is any worse than the other. The difference is that the Christian understanding of marriage doesn't allow for gay marriage. Disagree all you like but it's a gross exaggeration to say that the Bible denies the existence of gay people.

We are free to sin if we want. All of us do in some ways as we are all imperfect. And if you don't believe in God then you won't care if you do or not. But don't tell me that because I'm a Christian, I believe that 'being gay is a sin'. Because I don't..

Sexual orientation has always been innate, its just in recent decades that those who aren't straight have been criminalised or killed for it, at least in some places.

And "sexual love" between two people of the same sex isn't any more "problematic" than it is between the opposite sex.

If you think that straight couples should be able to get married but not gay couples, that is homophobia. Regardless of whether it says so in the bible or not.