to think this workplace situation is completely inappropriate?

[Lu781]

Man in senior management position, mid 40s. Was previously responsible for training and mentoring junior member of staff, but once she had moved to another department (but still a trainee) instigated a sexual relationship with her, despite his position within the company and living with a woman (claimed it was a platonic relationship)

The junior - early 20s but very naive/ sexually and emotionally inexperienced, had never had a boyfriend nor had sex (or gone further than kissing).

The 'relationship' ended after a few months when he decided she was too young for him, after which the junior ended up out of a job. Not as a direct result, but it certainly didn't help matters.

Was this inappropriate on his part? (or indeed both their parts?)

If they'd kept me on I would have had to leave either way, I was so upset after we broke up that I don't think I could have worked in the same dept even if not directly for him. And I would have felt uncomfortable working in his dept and us being in a relationship so that wouldn't have worked either.

If I'd got another job and we'd stayed together, I don't think we'd be together now and I'd probably still view it similarly, as it stands at least he didn't take up too much of my 20s.

@Lu781

Do you not think there's any difference between someone who has, say, been involved in a number of serious relationships since their teens, and another person who has had no such experiences, and just kissed a few guys at parties?

Are you saying that one 21 (say) year old is more deserving of protection than another? That's the slippery slope which led to young girls being labelled "streetwise" and not protected by social workers in Rotherham and the other towns with grooming rings. And judges saying that a girl could expect to be raped if she went out dressed "provocatively" and wasn't a virgin.

So unless she has special needs then no, I can't agree with that. She will have learned an important lesson.

Sorry. Hadn't read the full thread.

I agree with a previous poster that I can’t see what there is to gain by viewing yourself as a victim in this scenario.

You chose to enter into a relationship with a man that was older and senior at your firm (I believe you said you had moved to another department before it started).

Whether it was “inappropriate” is in the eyes of the beholder but there was certainly nothing illegal (if you were not put under pressure to do anything sexual). Two consenting adults with full capacity in a relationship. Even if the workplace forbid such a relationship (due to conflict of interest/professional boundaries etc) it would still not make such a relationship illegal - just that one or both people might have to leave their employment.

What you might have to face is that (as an adult with capacity) you made a poor choice. If you now feel that it was a poor choice for you. Whether other people think it was a poor choice is not relevant. You were an adult, without any learning disability, and you had the capacity to make your choice. Whether it ended up being a good choice or a bad choice it was your choice.

You have made no suggestion that you were blackmailed or bullied into a relationship. On the contrary you were mad about the fella.

Do you think the age of consent should be raised OP?
Do you think there should be a limit on the age gap in a relationship?
Or a limit on experienced and inexperienced people going out together (that one is completely unworkable). If you don’t think any of those things then what are we left with. That you wish you had made another choice- declined his advances/left him well alone when you moved departments - you are older and wiser - you live and learn.

@Lu781

Can I just add that in no way did I enter into it with the idea of advancing my career. I started looking for NQ jobs as soon as we started seeing each other because I didn't think we could or should work in the same department as a couple - because of course I thought it was the real thing.

I remember a few awkward interviews with other firms where they said oh XYZ solicitors is highly regarded in this field why are you looking to leave? And having to give a fake answer when they likely knew it was because of him, City gossip being what it is.

This makes me think deep down you knew there was something wrong or 'off' with the situation. Otherwise why the need for fake answers in interviews? If there was nothing wrong with the truth why not just state that?

He knew that by having a relationship with him, you would be putting your career in that firm in jeopardy.

As your mentor and the person responsible for your training and giving you a reference, yes I think he crossed a line. He knew how naive and vulnerable you were, and he took advantage of you.

It wouldn't surprise me if he hadn't done the same thing before, or again since.

Why do you care? Is it you?

@Africa2go

As lots of others have said, I would have bet my mortgage it was the legal profession just from your OP.

I think it was fairly routine back in the day - good looking female trainees recruited by the male partners, nature of the profession / training contract means you work very closely with your supervising partner. Sweeping generalisations - young, naive (studious / sheltered background) trainee is flattered by the attention from a senior / wealthy / popular / successful partner and a relationship begins. Trainee thinks its love, plans a future etc. Unbeknown to the trainee, its never the first time the partner has done this, rest of the firm judge her naivety / it detracts from ability, relationship ends and either the firm or trainee (who is devastated) makes decision that she shouldn't stay on beyond end of training contract.

Fortunately things have (started to) change. I would try to move on. Don't give it (or him) any more thought. Good luck.

Well to be strictly accurate it must have been the first time once.

It was your first love affair and it ended, as most of them do.

You entered into it willingly, everyone is inexperienced at some point or other. If you hadn't felt willing, would he have forced you?

It will do you no good in the end to paint yourself as a victim but if you genuinely feel he took advantage of a girl who still played with dolls and didn't know a penis from a pipe, then report him to the Law Society and call the police.

Only you know the answer. If it is a failed love affair, get over it. If you feel violated, take action.

"This makes me think deep down you knew there was something wrong or 'off' with the situation. Otherwise why the need for fake answers in interviews? If there was nothing wrong with the truth why not just state that?"

Only someone who has never worked in BigLaw would make the above assessment.

which is all very well but would be irrelevant in a lot of law firms because the management themselves are the ones who do this kind of thing to the subordinates and set the precedent.

Sure, if the managing partners are all pervs then it won’t help that much (although they’d be unlikely to agree to implement such a policy if they were). But it does at least the very least set an expectation.

Only someone who has never worked in BigLaw would make the above assessment.

I thought exactly the same when I read that comment. Unless you’ve worked in the industry it’s difficult to appreciate quite how acute the power imbalance is at that time in your career, or what sort of an environment City law as a whole is.

Your therapist should not be pushing their views on you. They seem to be setting you up as a victim when you didn't identify that way before.

It's OK to have had relationships go wrong. I'm not sure what you're going to gain by reframing this relationship as something bad.

[quote Lu781]@lynntheyresexpeople I am already in therapy, it was my therapist who has encouraged me to see the relationship as entirely inappropriate and an abuse of power, I'm now trying to process that as it completely changes how I view it.[/quote]
With respect, this isn't necessarily good therapy.

Take your point about him being "different" from the other partners. You liked the "softly softly", respectful approach, but you now see it is manipulative.

OK, maybe it was manipulative. But maybe it was genuine. Does seeing it as one way or the other help you identify genuine people now? Are you still making those poor choices? Have you reflected on your own professional boundaries?

All the ills of the world don't need a victim and a perpetrator, and cock up is far more common than conspiracy. Rather than paint one or other of you as the manipulator/victim, try and learn from the experience rather than focusing too much on defining it, because the answer is different for every individual.

I take great pains usually to present myself as not the victim, I am always the person who copes with everything, I don't expect people to feel sorry for me and I rarely feel sorry for myself. My therapist has encouraged me to see that its not always down to me, to blame myself exclusively, sometimes like in this situation its actually OK to think I was the victim.

I wasn't a typical 20 something; I think someone less naive, more worldly wise would either have instinctively or deliberately rebuffed any early overtures whereas it all went over my head, or of course would already have had a boyfriend/ been in a relationship so I don't think he would have gone there. I think what he liked about me was that although bright, I was naive and absolutely adored him. I'm sure it appealed to his vanity.

He encouraged me to dress differently, lots of maxi dresses, high necklines, long flowing layers etc (my usual style was mini/ bodycon dresses - outside work I should add!). Said it was more flattering although I don't know if that was true or just that it made me look older/ attracted less attention?

I've never had another workplace relationship since so you could say I learned to avoid it. Nor one with anyone who had any sort of power or advantage over me.

I’m also concerned you’re suddenly portraying yourself as a victim and him a callous predator, after so many years where you never had that impression

Yes of course ther was indeed a power imbalance, but by your own admission you thought you were going to marry this guy, and acted accordingly by applying for external nq positions, and even told him on your first date your sexual experience, which indicates you knew where this was going

Try to think did you wish the relationship with him? Or were you really a victim who was lured by this man,

He acted inappropriately given our positions I'm pretty clear on that. Even if he thought I was the One, and not just a bunk up, he should have thought to himself how unfair it would be to put me in that position only a few months before the end of my training contract. If I hadn't got kept on regardless he could have told me then.

I didn't have a crush on him. I had crushes on boys at uni, and would daydream about them asking me out etc. (never happened). With this guy I thought he was nice but it never occurred to me to see him in a romantic way. Whereas he apparently for the 6 months we shared an office was using it as an opportunity to find out all about me, and work out his best approach.

How it began was a work night out when I was slightly drunk (he was driving so sober) and I hugged him at the end of the night and thanked him for all his help as a mentor. The next day he took me out for lunch, I thought I was going to get in trouble because it was not a huggy type workplace. And instead he said something along the lines of I have to tell you how attracted to you I am, etc. I was just bowled over, that this older sophisticated, man of the world could be interested in me even though I'd never thought of him in that way. And there it began.

how long ago did it happen? apologies if you have already given this information

Being encouraged to dress differently by someone in a relationship is not that unusual I think and for you it could be something you look back on as a chance to experiment with other styles - teenagers go through this type of thing all the time, but the fact that you were doing it in your 20s does not automatically mean it is akin to an abuse of power by him.

I think one question you should ask yourself tho is this "Why did I allow myself to get involved with someone who I knew (and they knew I knew) was in a (serious?) relationship with someone else?"

Because setting aside my other comments upthread about the uniquely toxic culture that is BigLaw, I think you could easily have said to him at the start of the relationship "But what about your wife?" and the fact that you didnt (how did you feel about his partner?) does suggest some level of naievety.

I did ask about the woman he lived with, and he said their relationship had ended and she was living there temporarily. They lived on separate floors he told me, it was a huge house. I don't know if it was true. But at the time I didn't think he would lie to me, because you wouldn't lie to someone you care about. That was as Black and White as I thought things were at the time but I had no relationships to compare it to.

Honestly, I think it sounds more like a difficult life lesson about why workplace relationships are often best avoided. Everyone will have a "first serious relationship" at some point, and most will be more emotionally invested in that first relationship than is sustainable going forward. While it's nice for their partners to keep that in mind, I don't think that makes it more or less wrong from an employment standpoint. You were an adult, and were or should have been aware that workplace relationships often end terribly, with the participants unable or unwilling to continue working together, often requiring the less-important person to find another job. You still chose to do it. And from that bad experience, you learned not to have workplace relationships unless you were willing to leave the job over it one way or another. This is something a lot of people learn the hard way, regardless of their age or prior romantic experience.

Apologies, this was over 10 years ago.

"How it began was a work night out when I was slightly drunk (he was driving so sober) and I hugged him at the end of the night and thanked him for all his help as a mentor. The next day he took me out for lunch, I thought I was going to get in trouble because it was not a huggy type workplace."

I think you should use the above as a really great learning experience that it is best to have an attitude that no work places anywhere have a "huggy" type of culture especially not hugging men. Whether he was right or wrong to do what he did thereafter, I don't think I am too cynical to say that he clearly saw what you did as a green light and he would not be alone in coming to that conclusion amongst a lot of older men.

"I did ask about the woman he lived with, and he said their relationship had ended and she was living there temporarily. They lived on separate floors he told me, it was a huge house. I don't know if it was true. But at the time I didn't think he would lie to me, because you wouldn't lie to someone you care about. That was as Black and White as I thought things were at the time but I had no relationships to compare it to."

This is a really great lesson in relationships too.

Again I don't think it is too cynical to assume that if men tell you that they still live with their wife / partner but the relationship is over / they are not having sex / their wife does not understand them yadda yadda (especially if the man telling you this earns a very high salary / has quite a senior job hence you could assume that should they want to live somewhere else they could easily do that) 9 times out of 10 they will be telling a lie.

And if they are not telling a lie I personally think you would be within your rights to say they had to move out before you were prepared to have a relationship with them - that would quickly flush out whether they were telling the truth or not. And if they did not move out but they still tried to progress things with you then you have all the information you need to know what level of honesty there is likely to be your relationship with them.

It does glare out of this that you were indeed extremely naive for your age. But, with respect, I'm not sure at the age you were (and you'd clearly been through university and possibly other training too) that this was anyone's issue to manage but yours. With that degree of profound naiveté, you were always going to crash smack into the grubby reality of our patriarchal, selfish world at some point. And all of us get our hearts broken at some point and put up with some shit when we first go out there.

Like I said previously, if I knew this man I would have some pretty choice words for him. And I'm not specifically familiar with the way law works, but I can certainly believe that it was an inappropriate use of his advantage over you for him to approach you. But as PP have said, I'm not sure that framing this as victim-perp grooming helps anyone. He responded to what he saw as your advance; his was fairly direct and open.

(Also, if you really don't know at this stage that he 100% was married and still with his wife, I'm afraid your naiveté persists a bit.)

My therapist has encouraged me to see that its not always down to me, to blame myself exclusively, sometimes like in this situation its actually OK to think I was the victim.

It's great that you are examining your tendency to blame yourself exclusively. However "I am a victim" can be just as damaging a narrative as "It's all my fault".

First love is a learning experience, as is first job. You and this man had an unprofessional relationship with a clear power imbalance. That does not mean that he "groomed" you and denied you agency. You were and are an adult.