to think this workplace situation is completely inappropriate?

[Lu781]

Man in senior management position, mid 40s. Was previously responsible for training and mentoring junior member of staff, but once she had moved to another department (but still a trainee) instigated a sexual relationship with her, despite his position within the company and living with a woman (claimed it was a platonic relationship)

The junior - early 20s but very naive/ sexually and emotionally inexperienced, had never had a boyfriend nor had sex (or gone further than kissing).

The 'relationship' ended after a few months when he decided she was too young for him, after which the junior ended up out of a job. Not as a direct result, but it certainly didn't help matters.

Was this inappropriate on his part? (or indeed both their parts?)

@SimonedeBeauvoirscat thank you for understanding!

I'd not thought about him for years until a)the discussion I had with a friend when she said she felt I'd been groomed and b) the conversation with my therapist where I was going through my relationship history with her. He was in the past. I'd viewed it as entirely my fault for being so hopelessly naive, I'm now processing that he probably wasn't the genuine person I thought.

To confirm, my DC is very much NOT his. Thankfully.

Oh and as to why we split, I thought I'd said this in my OP, but it was his instigation, he said I was too young, I think actually he said I was too immature. The phrase no shit Sherlock springs to mind.

he said I was too young, I think actually he said I was too immature. The phrase no shit Sherlock springs to mind.

Sometimes, how you get them is how you lose them.

@DrSbaitso

Age gap relationships, especially between older, worldly men and young, inexperienced women, are never going to go away.

OP, you say he wasn't good in bed either? In my experience, it's unusual to be that head over heels smitten with someone who's crap in the sack.

Obviously at the time I had zero experiences to compare it to. I knew the earth didn't move, but it was only in subsequent relationships I became aware quite how bad it had been.

@znaika

It's not gross and it's really offensive to pretend that fully grown women are these hopeless little children who have no agency or responsibility for their actions. This attitude affects and harms all women in work. Op went through a tough selection process and had done a competitive degree, she was not this delicate little flower.

I agree with this. The attempts to portray the op as a clueless, helpless innocent victim is frustrating and does a major disservice to those who are actually groomed. She had been to university, had done a degree, competed for a training place etc etc. Hardly some wide-eyed ingenue.

@Lu781 you’re welcome. I do think the word ‘grooming’ is very loaded and people’s reactions do tend to gravitate instinctively towards children. So I can see why some people might instinctively recoil from that phrasing. But do I think it was an inappropriate relationship? Hell yes. Please do explore this further with your therapist - it is ok to have unresolved and very mixed feelings about that experience.

Should read are frustrating and do a disservice

@sammylady37 agree grooming I equate v young teen or pre teens and people in places of power teachers, coaches etc.

I've been involved as a child of 9 in a police investigation of grooming in a club I was in. There's a world of difference between us at primary school and getting 'extra special help' from someone in their 40s and someone mid 20s being out on a date then in a relationship with a colleague. This thread has actually stressed me out in a bizarre way now.

"Age gap relationships, especially between older, worldly men and young, inexperienced women, are never going to go away."

That may well be true. But it does not take away the fact that age gap relationships especially the type described by OP do by virtue of the circumstances attract certain problems as a result of the type of people who are inclined to have them.

And in my experience in city law firms, bizarrely you cannot automatically chalk it up to "immaturity" or being extemely naieve that young women want to be in large age gap relationships notwithstanding the fact that they know the older man is already married etc.

I have observed in countless situations law firm male partners going through 2, 3 or even more marriages to younger and younger colleagues just because they can (the women are there and are willing and they can afford the big divorces and the round 2 round 3 etc).

So in that sense you could see a situation where an inexperienced woman might have grounds to think "this is not just an affair this is the real deal, I am going to become Mrs X round 2 or Mrs Y round 3 and sail off into the sunset happy ever after.

And if you did think that (because there were countless examples of that type of thing happening around you) and you had genuinely wanted it then you might well feel cheated if, in your case, it did not happen. The toxic culture goes deep.

And in that sense what this male law partner did was not "grooming" in the conventional sense, but it may very well have been a much more calculated and transactional process for him than it was for OP for whom it was the "whole fairytale" she had going on in her head.

@znaika

It's not gross and it's really offensive to pretend that fully grown women are these hopeless little children who have no agency or responsibility for their actions. This attitude affects and harms all women in work. Op went through a tough selection process and had done a competitive degree, she was not this delicate little flower.

Yeah, this is a problem with this kind of blanket idea that unless there is some kind of perfect equality of life stage and employment, and I've even seen people occasionally suggest income level, that relationships are inappropriate and abusive.

Because what is being implied here is telling adult women that they can't make decisions about their sexual and romantic life. They need permission from their parents/employers/the state/whatever.

There was a time when young women were expected to be under the care of their parents until they met the right kind of man and were allowed to marry him. And that was not some evil culture, it was in large part meant to protect young women from people trying to exploit them, or making bad decisions out of immaturity.

But I can't particularly say that I would have been happy, at 20 or 23 or 26, to have to adhere to anyone else's ideas about who I should have a relationship with.

[quote Lu781]@SimonedeBeauvoirscat thank you for understanding!

I'd not thought about him for years until a)the discussion I had with a friend when she said she felt I'd been groomed and b) the conversation with my therapist where I was going through my relationship history with her. He was in the past. I'd viewed it as entirely my fault for being so hopelessly naive, I'm now processing that he probably wasn't the genuine person I thought.

To confirm, my DC is very much NOT his. Thankfully.

Oh and as to why we split, I thought I'd said this in my OP, but it was his instigation, he said I was too young, I think actually he said I was too immature. The phrase no shit Sherlock springs to mind.[/quote]
Given that you said you were very naive and much more immature than usual for your age, it's not strange that he might have expected someone more mature.

Please be very careful op. You could easily destroy this mans life by insinuating he was some sort of predator. It reads more that you are still upset he ended it, and from your therapists lead have decided you were somehow coerced into the relationship. Being naive doesn't mean you were groomed. You were 23 years old. A fully grown adult. Whether you had dolls at 15 or not, you were a consenting adult who entered into a relationship with an older man. Why you are so determined to make more of it, I have no idea.

Oh do leave off.

I'm not determined to make more of it. Where have I said I'm going to contact him, or cause trouble professionally for him? I haven't even hinted at it. That's because I have no intention of doing so.

It is very clear to me now that he acted inappropriately and what he did was definitely wrong. However realising that and acknowledging that to myself as I now have is a world away from launching some sort of hate campaign against him!

As for me being immature, well yes I was. But I was exactly the same for the 6 months he spent gaining my confidence. After sharing an office for 8-10 hours a day 5 days a week it would've been pretty obvious I was less mature than the average 23 year old. And even if it wasn't obvious then, it would've been within days or weeks of us dating, I don't think it would have taken him months to realise it. Looking back I'd say it was a convenient excuse to end it and that in his mind our relationship only ever had a limited shelf life

You’re highly invested in the narrative of him being wrong and you being an innocent victim. It’s not unreasonable to question why that is, especially 10 years later.

I think I've explained clearly and more than once why this has all come up following recent sessions with my therapist and her views about his inappropriate behaviour which has obviously led me to reassess and reconsider this past relationship.

I'm sure as my therapy journey continues I'll be re examining other past events and experiences too, to learn from them in one way or another.

You were a trainee at a city law firm who knew to wear sexy clothing out of the office but conservative clothing in the office, and were so invested in your future with the guy you applied for NQ roles elsewhere, yet insinuate he was the reason you weren’t kept on...how immature were you really OP? Sexually inexperienced does not make you immature and naive.

Professionally it was wrong, but you are not a victim here, and you’re going to great lengths to persuade everyone of that. You are doing a massive disservice to genuine victims of grooming and it’s because of behaviour like yours real victims aren’t taken seriously.

In my not-inconsiderable experience with giant law firms, the new hires in their early 20s who are happy to sleep with partners old enough to be their fathers or grandfathers, and often happy to overlook the fact that those partners are married, are generally not naive ingenues who've never so much as kissed a man before. So I can't say I blame him for being surprised and put off by that aspect of OP's inexperience.

It's not up to you to judge whether or not I was a victim. I also don't have to prove how naive and lacking in emotional experience I was, although I think it's pretty clear from what I've said that I was. And again, the fact a woman wears a short skirt doesn't mean she is dressing sexily.

And how dare you say it's because of behaviour like mine that others aren't taken seriously? What behaviour - posting on an anonymous forum about the opinions of my friend and of a qualified therapist?! So somehow by posting on Mumsnet I'm doing a disservice to victims of crime? I think that's a bit of a stretch, to out it mildly.

It wasn't a giant firm, as I've said. City, but not Magic Circle.

I'd never dated nor gone beyond kissing. Nowhere have I said I hadn't kissed anyone.

I also don't have to prove how naive and lacking in emotional experience I was, although I think it's pretty clear from what I've said that I was

You have spent several posts trying to persuade everyone here that you were naive and lacking in emotional intelligence. You are going to great lengths to prove just that.

And again, the fact a woman wears a short skirt doesn't mean she is dressing sexily

No, of course not, but someone who decides not to wear short skirts and body con dresses to the office shows a bit more maturity than someone who is completely clueless, as you make yourself out to be.

So somehow by posting on Mumsnet I'm doing a disservice to victims of crime? I think that's a bit of a stretch, to out it mildly

Yes, you are. Because it means when a genuine victim of grooming comes along, people will think “oh here we go, someone else with regrets trying to be a victim”.

It's a bit odd to post an AIBU and then tell people to leave off when they say YABU, to ask if the hypothetical person was a victim, and then tell people they have no right to judge when they say no.

I know some pretty silly therapists so I would not assume what one is telling you is the God's truth.

Please be very careful op. You could easily destroy this mans life by insinuating he was some sort of predator.

What a load of rubbish. Seeing as 90% of the posters on this thread think he's done nothing wrong, and presumably most of them are WOMEN, I think his life is safe from being destroyed regardless of what the OP does or doesn't do.

I personally think he behaved like a predatory cunt, and I'm sorry you experienced it, Lu781. I hope you come to a level of acceptance soon, and you get to experience kind, genuine, equal relationships in the future.

@MsHedgehog

You were a trainee at a city law firm who knew to wear sexy clothing out of the office but conservative clothing in the office, and were so invested in your future with the guy you applied for NQ roles elsewhere, yet insinuate he was the reason you weren’t kept on...how immature were you really OP? Sexually inexperienced does not make you immature and naive.

Professionally it was wrong, but you are not a victim here, and you’re going to great lengths to persuade everyone of that. You are doing a massive disservice to genuine victims of grooming and it’s because of behaviour like yours real victims aren’t taken seriously.

Are you a lawyer? If the OP was the first trainee not kept on in 10 years in the department this man worked in then it's highly likely it was because of this man. It's possible it was performance but unless she was really bad, far more likely it was because of the relationship.

OP, I am sorry this happened to you. He was entirely inappropriate and it was an abuse of power. But as others have said, it isn't helpful to flip this in your head to a position where you had no agency. He absolutely should not have done this but even if he hadn't been your supervisor, at 23 you were old enough to know objectively that a relationship with someone this much older, who was a partner in a team you wanted to work in, was a bad idea. I bet you'd have told your friends not to do this if it had been then not you.

It's not all your fault (not even majority your fault) and it's good to recognise that, but be careful that your therapist isn't putting feelings/thoughts in your head that aren't how you actually felt about the relationship. We've all done things that we regret in our teens/20s - it's part of developing as people. This is a good one to acknowledge he was a shit but then try to move on.

If the OP was the first trainee not kept on in 10 years in the department this man worked in then it's highly likely it was because of this man. It's possible it was performance but unless she was really bad, far more likely it was because of the relationship.

That's possible, but I'd want a few more details about how the relationship ended, and how OP behaved at that point and afterwards, before reaching that conclusion. Generally those who behave improperly toward partners don't get kept on, no matter how good their work. And from how OP's described her emotional reaction to the breakup, I doubt her work was impeccable at that time, either. Maybe I'm wrong and OP maintained perfect professionalism at all times post-breakup, but I don't think we should just assume that's the case here.

Are you a lawyer?

10 years ago, there is pretty much no chance a trainee in a small firm would be kept on in this situation, even if they behaved impeccably. No departmental head is going to want to have to manage having the (recent) ex of a partner working in the department. The relationship was inappropriate and (as the world over) it would have been the junior employee taking the brunt of that.

It would be the same now but they'd be much more cautious about the fact that the relationship was an abuse of power and potential negative PR and they might both have to go. A partner bringing in a lot of work would probably survive it in my view, even now.