to think this workplace situation is completely inappropriate?

[Lu781]

Man in senior management position, mid 40s. Was previously responsible for training and mentoring junior member of staff, but once she had moved to another department (but still a trainee) instigated a sexual relationship with her, despite his position within the company and living with a woman (claimed it was a platonic relationship)

The junior - early 20s but very naive/ sexually and emotionally inexperienced, had never had a boyfriend nor had sex (or gone further than kissing).

The 'relationship' ended after a few months when he decided she was too young for him, after which the junior ended up out of a job. Not as a direct result, but it certainly didn't help matters.

Was this inappropriate on his part? (or indeed both their parts?)

@girlmom21

it wasn't just a moment of madness he'd been thinking about it for over a year.

Have you ever thought that maybe he genuinely did just really like you and kept his distance for so long because he knew it was inappropriate, and then when you hugged him and were no longer his trainee he just thought 'fuck it - what do I have to lose?'

Yeah he should have known better than to mix business and pleasure but so should you. He may well have known they weren't going to keep you on so might have thought it wasn't as inappropriate as it would be if you were staying.

You also say you experienced a lot of unrequited love before him but that doesn't really match up with the naive victim routine?

Agree with all of this!

Lu781 I don't know which firm this was but I did my articles (as it was called then - now training contract) at a big firm. One of the very first unwritten rules which I got loud and clear without even an "incident" happening to demonstrate it to my intake was "Never get drunk at any work events". All of us trainees observed that to the letter. Even the booze male intake observed it and one guy even went round pronouncing that he was tea total.
I think the partners sent this unwritten message around the firm probably for the very reason (ironically) that there had be legendary incidents in the past (people making idiots of themselves at a work do including agression or sexual misdemeanours etc) and the firm didn't want the hassle of having to deal with the after math. Whether that was right or wrong I dont know but i do think its worth err-ing on the side of caution and not drinking with a work supervisor.
It is telling that the "hug" incident you described happened when you were drunk and he was sober and that would have fed into the feeling of inbalance of power between you both.

Your posts are really really worrying as you are determined to portray yourself as the poor innocent naive victim and him as the big bad predator preying on your apparent innocence, an innocence that ignored the fact this man was living with another woman.

Your posts are also a discredit to real victims of grooming. I have actually seen this once before...a woman in her 20s formed a close relationship with an older man, they went on holiday together where they had sex, and a few years later she claimed he groomed her and he actually lost his job over it...she had to explain to her fiancé she wasn’t a virgin and that’s how far her manipulative mindset went - costing a man his job, home and pension.

Own your actions OP. You willingly entered into a relationship, you even imagined a future with him, and it didn’t work out. It’s a failed relationship, that’s all. Stop being so silly and, dare I say, manipulative,

I say unrequited love, what I mean is basically early teen or even tween style unrequited crushes on boys, except I was aged 18-23. I used to keep a diary religiously - a typical entry from that time would be along the lines of

'saw John at lectures today. A couple of times I thought he was going to look in my direction but he didn't. Maybe tomorrow (loveheart).

A few days later.

Today I was sitting right behind him. His pen ran out so I offered him mine. He gave me his dazzling smile (loveheart loveheart) and said thank you. My heart nearly exploded with joy!

A week later...

John came to lectures with Katie today. Jenny says they're an item. Cried earlier thinking he's so gorgeous and now he will never be mine (insert rant/praise of all the things I liked about someone who barely gave me the time of day).

Or words to that effect, and rinse and repeat for the next few years. And of course if he or any of them had shown interest I probably would have run a mile, I had no idea about relationships really.

But I did a lot of that liking someone from afar so thinking someone had done that to me was rather touching .

Op are you rewriting history? To make yourself a Victim? On one side you’re a young woman in short body con dresses telling this man on your first date about your lack of sexual experience and indicating you want to have sex with him , on the other you’re a victim who was abused.

You say you were Someone who decided you were going to marry him, knew what they were doing, and started applying for nq positions elsewhere, Which is it? It can’t be both. I get you were gutted he dumped you, but do you even know the reality any more?

@Lu781 so what you're saying is he must have groomed you because you were really immature?

That's not how it works.

You were flattered because he gave you attention. He didn't have to groom you. All he had to say was that he found you attractive (after you gave him the green light) and you swooned. I really don't see that those are the actions of an abuser and a victim.

@Namechangeapologies the firm had a massive drinking culture at the time although that has changed now apparently. Client dos were the worst, half the people there ended up shitfaced. People slept at their desks overnight, that kind of thing. Smaller firm, not magic circle which is probably why it went on for so long.

Work drinks were at least 3 nights a week, every week. Sometimes lunchtimes too though thankfully that was already on the way out. It wasn't uncommon for partners putting in a late shift in the office to get wines and spirits out.

Sorry op but all that's just so too too much. As a 20+ yo studying law you were drawing hearts in a diary exploding with love due to a guy borrowing a pen? It reads like the 'October 3rd' scene from Mean Girls.

Op the way I read it you entered as an adult willingly into this relationship with this man, he binned you off eventually and you are still obsessed with him. Even now as you were then, and you can’t get over it.

Yes he should never have got involved with you. Did he know your issues, no one can guess, but all these years later you’re still not over it and you’re still obsessed with him

It's actually sounding to me as though losing a parent at a young age - not a child, but a young age - has made you regress in a way and continue to adopt a childlike outlook and demeanour past the ages when you'd normally have them. You might be naturally prone to this anyway if you were still playing with dolls at 15 (was your parent unwell at that point?).

If so, that's the real issue I guess.

I think the posters minimising OP's experience are not aware of quite how toxic the city law environment is/was -I moved on a LONG time ago - the pressure to succeed, the money on offer and the somewhat alcohol fuelled socialising expected (partners' lunch room drinks were lethal with waiters filling your drink every time you moved your hand off the top to gesture!)

The power imbalance between male Heads of Department (who might well supervise trainees and definitely choose who gets recruited/promoted) and ambitious bright young things who feel they should do anything to get ahead is huge. I'd not be surprised if young men also got propositioned but it would be much quieter as plenty of homophobia in the toxic environment. Plus the whole "mentor" thing with a supervisor would be a great way to get someone's trust.

I was only naive about wanting the "glamour" of all nighters doing international transactions but grew up and walked away from law completely 18 months after completing my training contract as I hated the City and it all felt totally pointless.

Pretty well all the City lawyer types are well aware of how abusive the culture was - some of my trainee colleagues worked out that they weren't getting minimum wage some months if they looked at hours billed Vs salary, the relationship side was all part of the same culture.

As a wise person once said, you live and learn.

This is the thing to take away from it. You were young and foolish - and got hurt. But you were both consenting adults. Nothing terrible or even particularly unusual here. Not great, sure - but one of those things that shape who you are. Chalk it up to experience and move on….

@Bluntness100 I'm sure you understand that the way a woman dresses is neither an indicator of her sexual availability nor experience 🙂

At the office I wore the same type of suits as my colleagues as is common in City firms. Outside the office I wore short skirts because they suited me. I wasn't trying to attract men in doing so, I wore them because I liked them. Of course he never saw what I wore outside the office until we had already embarked on a relationship of sorts..

I certainly didn't indicate I wanted to have sex with him on our First date, I'm not sure what you're getting that from? I did explain to him early doors I was a virgin of course - because I wanted to make it clear I wouldn't be ready to have sex immediately, or even after 2-3 dates which I'd heard from friends was standard.

I'm very well acquainted with reality thanks. Its fairly obvious that someone less naive wouldn't have attracted his interest in the first place, or would have gone into it more realistically/ cynically and a lot less starry eyed than I did. The only reason I was looking for another job once we started dating was because I thought he was the one. That was why I was dating him and eventually having sex with him.

I appreciate people don't quite get it, because most people don't get to 23 being quite so inexperienced and unworldly as I was so its hard to understand and empathise. And if you've not worked in a law firm especially a City one, they do have a very unique dynamic.

@randomsabreuse

I think the posters minimising OP's experience are not aware of quite how toxic the city law environment is/was -I moved on a LONG time ago - the pressure to succeed, the money on offer and the somewhat alcohol fuelled socialising expected (partners' lunch room drinks were lethal with waiters filling your drink every time you moved your hand off the top to gesture!)

The power imbalance between male Heads of Department (who might well supervise trainees and definitely choose who gets recruited/promoted) and ambitious bright young things who feel they should do anything to get ahead is huge. I'd not be surprised if young men also got propositioned but it would be much quieter as plenty of homophobia in the toxic environment. Plus the whole "mentor" thing with a supervisor would be a great way to get someone's trust.

I was only naive about wanting the "glamour" of all nighters doing international transactions but grew up and walked away from law completely 18 months after completing my training contract as I hated the City and it all felt totally pointless.

Pretty well all the City lawyer types are well aware of how abusive the culture was - some of my trainee colleagues worked out that they weren't getting minimum wage some months if they looked at hours billed Vs salary, the relationship side was all part of the same culture.

I work in a city law firm, as have others who have commented on this thread. Regardless of the toxic nature of them, OP willingly entered into a relationship with the man. No one forced her and she is now rewriting her history for some reason that no one understands.

I kind of agree with some of the previous posters. Holding onto this stuff for 10 years is not healthy.
I totally get the massive drinking culture but that is also one of the things which should reinforce the message that the less powerful people in the firm could be made (even more) vulnerable (hence don't put yourself in that position).

I am slightly more sympathetic to your take on it in as much as I totally believe there were (and still are) men who not only would have taken your "drunken hug" as a come on but also taken it as what we now define in such detail as "consent" - i.e. the hug would be interpreted by a certain kind of man as a blank cheque to do what he wanted (and push for that).

However on balance based on what you have written both you and he had a consentual sexual relationship which did not work out and regretting it in retrospect (or if not regretting it then being unable to get beyond the hurt of it ending) does not turn it into sexual abuse.
Yes you were immature and took longer than a lot of people to have sexual experiences. But then there are people out there for whom their first sexual experiences come a lot earlier than they would have liked too. So some people would think you were fortunate for it not to have happened till your 20s. The key thing here is for you to be able to move past it (especially as it was 10 years ago).
Oh and please tell me that the child you have referred to is not this man's child because that is a whole other ball game.

Why did it end OP?

I appreciate people don't quite get it, because most people don't get to 23 being quite so inexperienced and unworldly as I was so its hard to understand and empathise. And if you've not worked in a law firm especially a City one, they do have a very unique dynamic

This is extremely frustrating. You were a grown woman OP. A grown woman. You were able to graduate and even get a TC in a city law firm. You may have been inexperienced and allegedly playing with dolls at the age of 15, but you were not groomed. You were naive to think this man was the one, but equally, you’ve given us no information about the relationship - maybe for him, you were his girlfriend and he really loved you, it just didn’t work out. An age gap does not mean the younger person has been groomed.

This thread is turning quite gross. OP is not ‘holding onto it’ for 10 years. She’s seeking to constructively process something which happened in her past which she wants to develop a better understanding of. That’s how we put things behind us.

OP - you seem to be taking all this with very good grace. But frankly nobody would blame you for stepping away. I think you’ve had some constructive advice and you’ve gained a fresh perspective on what happened in that phase of your life. It sounds as though you’re in a good place by and large, and it’s great that you’re investing in yourself by doing the work in therapy. You are on the right track. Please keep going and don’t internalise or take to heart some of the more old fashioned attitudes on display in this thread. The world is changing and more people do understand these days. I wish you the best of luck and happiness for your future.

PS. AIBU is full of super-contrarian assholes 😂

@MichelleScarn

Sorry op but all that's just so too too much. As a 20+ yo studying law you were drawing hearts in a diary exploding with love due to a guy borrowing a pen? It reads like the 'October 3rd' scene from Mean Girls.

I was. I'm sorry if it doesn't fit what people expect law students to be like. I didn't have a boyfriend or date, I spent a lot of time pining for guys who were unattainable - with hindsight I think that was because I wasn't really equipped for dating.

@DrSbaitso no my parent became ill very suddenly and unexpectedly. I didn't regress, I just didn't develop. Partly this was due to there being a lot of sexual bullying at my school, Boys trying to touch you, grab your breasts etc from the age of 12. So I saw boys as predators. I then moved to an all girls school for the rest of my education. I didn't go out or socialise outside school so had nothing to with any boys until I went to uni, where I spent most of my time drawing lovehearts, when I wasn't studying.

@MsHedgehog

Why did it end OP?

Another question. I asked this before but you ignored it...were there enough vacancies for the number of trainees? Did your firm know you wanted to stay on, or did they know you were interviewing elsewhere?

The world is changing and more people do understand these days

I’m not sure the world does change that much, though. People fuck. They often fancy people they meet at work. In a long hours City culture, they spend a lot - a lot - of time at work and so colleagues are often the only people they meet. Is it ideal if there’s an imbalance in seniority? Obviously not - but unless it’s a case of “I’ll further your career if you shag me/hinder it if you don’t” and it’s about two consenting adults getting it on, then there are no definite rights and wrongs about it. Vastly, vastly different from a teacher/pupil thing.

It's not gross and it's really offensive to pretend that fully grown women are these hopeless little children who have no agency or responsibility for their actions. This attitude affects and harms all women in work. Op went through a tough selection process and had done a competitive degree, she was not this delicate little flower.

Age gap relationships, especially between older, worldly men and young, inexperienced women, are never going to go away.

OP, you say he wasn't good in bed either? In my experience, it's unusual to be that head over heels smitten with someone who's crap in the sack.

OP, I am a lawyer and I recognise your description of unworldy studious trainees.

However, I wonder if you are doing yourself a bit of a disservice. You seem to be removing all agency from yourself. You were an adult and did make choices.