to think this workplace situation is completely inappropriate?

[Lu781]

Man in senior management position, mid 40s. Was previously responsible for training and mentoring junior member of staff, but once she had moved to another department (but still a trainee) instigated a sexual relationship with her, despite his position within the company and living with a woman (claimed it was a platonic relationship)

The junior - early 20s but very naive/ sexually and emotionally inexperienced, had never had a boyfriend nor had sex (or gone further than kissing).

The 'relationship' ended after a few months when he decided she was too young for him, after which the junior ended up out of a job. Not as a direct result, but it certainly didn't help matters.

Was this inappropriate on his part? (or indeed both their parts?)

It's a bit skeevy but if she's not in his chain of command and there are no internal company rules against it (or external regulatory body rules) then I'm not sure much could be done. I've known a couple of relationships like this in my time as a solicitor - usually former trainees following qualification (into a different team in the firm) with their previous trainee supervisors.

@girlmom21

OP what industry do they work in? Lots of posters are citing a power imbalance but I've never worked in a job where I've felt hugely inferior. I've always had good relationships with senior management and they've always been mutually respectful relationships.

Supervisors in law can determine a trainee's entire career path. It may not be law though.

The junior - early 20s but very naive/ sexually and emotionally inexperienced, had never had a boyfriend nor had sex (or gone further than kissing)

What’s in appropriate is that work colleagues seem to know so much detail about this person’s previous dating/sexual history. However those conversations have happened, they need to be shut down.

Nothing inappropriate here. Both consenting adults. He didn't instigate the relationship until he moved department. Maybe she fancied the pants off him and actually enjoyed the fact that he was older and more experienced? Who says he was predatory? How do you know? When I was that age I also had a work relationship with a senior manager. I liked the fact he was older and more experienced.It didn't last. We both moved on.

They were two adults who had a consensual relationship. People meet at work all the time.

Did other posters not have the experience in their early twenties of friends ending up in relationships with older men that absolutely would not have happened if they had been older/wiser/more confident in dating? A close friend ended up in a relationship with a friend of her boss who essentially decided they were going to date. Her boss kept putting her in situations where she had to spend time with this guy and it just sort of happened. It was consensual in the sense she agreed to it but it wasn't ok. I also had more than one friend who fell for the married man script.

It's obviously not a crime and potentially not a workplace issue either but I think we should recognise that someone young and not experienced in dating may be vulnerable to an older man manipulating them and it's not ok even if it's perfectly legal

abusive. workplace sex should be something totally avoided. hes abused his position and shes been damaged. my thoughts 100% with the woman. shocking.

How exactly did she lose her job?

He clearly had a lot more power in the relationship for various reasons but that's not something you can always legislate to control.

My view is that he was looking for a bit in the workplace. Predated on a naive young woman who probably fell for him. Things getting out of control, she needed to go. PDQ.

@Bluntness100

She’s a grown woman so it’s fine, unless you’re saying she had additional needs and was unable to make decisions? Ie she lacked capability?

This.

What are you actually seeking on this thread OP? General moral disapproval, or go-ahead to try and bring some professional censure down on the man?

The first, knock yourself out. I'd judge him to be a sleazeball and you and other posters can do so to your heart's content. Draw down professional censure, I'm not sure you're on strong ground particularly. I'd also invite people to consider whether they really want their work to be in a position to judge whether their consensual relationship is "appropriate", and to professionally censure them if not. Because I can't think of any ways that could possibly go wrong.

I’m guessing law. Someone senior and a trainee. I think it’s inappropriate due to power imbalance. He’s responsible for training eg his girlfriend could get best opportunities or most in demand seats if she is nice to him, certainly would look that way - why’s Katie got commercial seat and a trip to New York and I’m doing police station call outs at 3am - answer she’s shagging the training partner. At end of 2 year training he’ll have say in who gets taken on very convenient for him if she’s not taken on once they have split.
I’m surprised firm doesn’t have rules. If she’d made allegations that he’d behaved inappropriately coming on to her then yes he could have been investigated by sra and brought his name and firms into distripute.

They are both deeply unpleasant individuals.

The guy sounds sleazy, but I can't see it's going to meet the threshold for any sort of disciplinary action at work if he wasn't in a position of direct influence over her at the time.

I don't see how her level of sexual experience is relevant really, if she's in her 20s she's old enough to make her own decisions about who she gets involved with.

I think her lack of experience is irrelevant, I guess you are the girl? If you are not the girl it’s a bit creepy you know so much about her sexual history

The big difference in age and power would, as another poster said, give me the ick. It does sound as if he's taken advantage but probably not broken any rules. However, if you think his status in the company allowed him to influence the decision to let her go (and that that was connected with their having had a relationship) then that would be a total abuse of power.

@ThisIsStartingToBoreMe

They are both deeply unpleasant individuals.

Don't see why she is 'deeply unpleasant' - she's embarked on an unwise relationship (not great judgement but people do make mistakes, particularly when they are young and inexperienced) and subsequently lost her job.

@ThisIsStartingToBoreMe

They are both deeply unpleasant individuals.

What's she done wrong?

Where I worked (law) there were many rumours about "sleep with me and you'll get a NQ role in desired department" happening with certain partners. NQ role didn't happen in the rumours - which were more of a warning to the female trainees.

It was definitely abuse of position!

Thanks, its interesting to see a range of views.

So to answer a few questions:

@Rainbowqueeen

Inappropriate on his part He had a partner and the age gap/power imbalance makes it ick. It wouldn’t surprise me if he was grooming her. Bit surprised at the majority of comments tbh. I don’t think decent men behave in this way

Agree with this. He's a creepy player and she's niave and got played.

I see why you're unhappy OP. So judge him all you like on his poor moral stance, but legally he's done nothing wrong. The world is full of shitbags and there's nothing to be done about that.

The young woman has to take some responsibility here, niave and immature as she probably was, it was her choice to have a workplace relationship. However manipulative he may have been, she could have drawn a hard line in the sand and chosen to keep her love life and work life separate, ruling him out as a potential partner on that decision alone. She could still make that decision for the future, that way if she's going through what feels to her like a horrific breakup, then that's all it is, no company gossip, no chance of being stitched up by the other party behind the scenes.

She was charmed by a sleaze and fell for it (and for him?). Breakups aren't fun, this was her first and not her choice to split, I can see how it might have impacted on her work, especially with him working there too. I feel sorry for her, but ultimately, shit happens. Time to pick herself up, dust herself off and move on.

She might want to rethink her decisions on: a) dating work colleagues, b) age gap relationships, c) dating middle aged men who are still flat sharing with their mate (whether the friend is male or female he's still likely to be a loser, even if he's not lying through his teeth about the nature of his relationship with his 'flatmate').

@Dixiechickonhols

I’m guessing law. Someone senior and a trainee. I think it’s inappropriate due to power imbalance. He’s responsible for training eg his girlfriend could get best opportunities or most in demand seats if she is nice to him, certainly would look that way - why’s Katie got commercial seat and a trip to New York and I’m doing police station call outs at 3am - answer she’s shagging the training partner. At end of 2 year training he’ll have say in who gets taken on very convenient for him if she’s not taken on once they have split. I’m surprised firm doesn’t have rules. If she’d made allegations that he’d behaved inappropriately coming on to her then yes he could have been investigated by sra and brought his name and firms into distripute.

My guess too. Law firms have a very strictly defined hierarchy, which makes affairs between managers and juniors more likely to be inappropriate than perhaps they are in other sectors.

In order to be retained by a firm after the two year training period, you need to convince the partnership that you are a serious prospect as a solicitor. If you've gained a reputation as the office bike you'll be viewed in a different light. Harsh, but sadly true. Given that there are many factors that go into the decision to retain a trainee (at least four different departments, work conducted over two years, future business plan for the firm, vacancies in the relevant department etc) it would be impossible to prove that this was the deal breaker.

I worked for many years in a law firm and the partners/trainees/secretaries who'd had affairs were gossiped about for years afterwards. In one case a secretary married her boss and was later promoted to a senior HR position - she was never regarded as having deserved the position (this was possibly unfair on her, but that's how people talk).

It's unlikely the manager in the OP's question was acting in the woman's best interests when he began the relationship and therefore I agree it was inappropriate and sleazy.

However, she should have treated herself with more respect and thought about her own career prospects before agreeing to the affair. You live and learn. I hope she finds a good job somewhere new.

@Dixiechickonhols

I’m guessing law. Someone senior and a trainee. I think it’s inappropriate due to power imbalance. He’s responsible for training eg his girlfriend could get best opportunities or most in demand seats if she is nice to him, certainly would look that way - why’s Katie got commercial seat and a trip to New York and I’m doing police station call outs at 3am - answer she’s shagging the training partner. At end of 2 year training he’ll have say in who gets taken on very convenient for him if she’s not taken on once they have split. I’m surprised firm doesn’t have rules. If she’d made allegations that he’d behaved inappropriately coming on to her then yes he could have been investigated by sra and brought his name and firms into distripute.

I will say I think this depends on the set up of the firm - having supervised trainees in my firm I definitely don't get to decide what department they sit in or whether they get a job on qualification! But:

(1) if the individual in question did have that kind of power, I'd definitely expect the firm to have rules against this and for there to be consequences if their relationship became public; and

(2) notwithstanding the fact that I don't have that kind of power in my role as a supervisor, I would absolutely expect my firm to take a seriously dim view on me if I got involved with a current trainee.

As I said above, what I have seen on a number of occasions are former supervisors waiting until post-qualification to get together with their former trainees - at that point the dust has settled and (assuming that they work in different departments) they won't have any particular authority or influence.

It’s possibly the man in question asking this. If so, yes you’ve been a bit sleazy given her age and inexperience, but you’re probably safe from any sexual harassment charges if that’s what concerns you mate.

It’s posts like this that are detrimental to women... a grown woman happy to get into a relationship. Doesn’t work out the way she hoped and now there’s a suggestion she was groomed. Really?!