To have completely changed my mind about WFH?

[MauvePinkRose]

I know there is a WFH thread but I mean this more generally than the specific things about it that are driving me to drink!

Pre pandemic, I would have said that WFH was a positive thing that employers should absolutely allow, reducing traffic and therefore pollution, allowing more quality time at home.

Now, I’ve changed my mind.

I think it’s having a negative impact on public transport, which in turn will lead to redundancies and reduced public transport, which is bad news for those who can’t drive. It is also having a knock on effect on things like coffee kiosks and sandwich bars.

Then, I’m not convinced that WFH is as productive as people think. I don’t know what’s going on with DVLA for instance but I am still waiting for a driving license I sent off for three months ago and you can’t get through on the phones.

It’s turned family homes into workplaces and thus impacts everyone. I’ve had some really stressful and unpleasant times because of it.

And I do think it’s not very healthy. Dp rarely leaves the house without me, has gained weight and falls ill all the time as I just feel he isn’t gaining any natural immunity.

I’ll probably be flamed by all the WFHers now

@MauvePinkRose I agree. I mean, it's OK to a degree, and is helpful for some - especially those who struggle with childcare.

And it's great to not have to commute, and to be able to roll out of bed 5 minutes before work starts, and not 2 hours before, and to 'finish' and be home at 5.10pm, instead of not getting home til 6.30pm!

But people need to start going back now, if only 2 or 3 days a week, to get back to normality. People cannot work from home forever. It's ridiculous. And there's simply no need for it anymore.

And as you say, many things are waaaaay behind now - some months in some cases, because of the lack of staff in the offices. People doing stuff from home - who work for DVLA, land registry, DWP, Inland revenue, councils, etc, is resulting in things being done much MUCH slower. 'Work from home' is clearly not doable long-term...

And I know I'll get flamed for this, but I don't think men should work from home. They need to go back to the workplace now.

As the OP says, many men have got complacent, lazy, and slovenly, whilst many women have had their workload doubled, and have struggled to run the home, look after the kids, and in some cases, do their own wfh job, with the men stuck in every day, dominating everything.

And whilst a few people say 'oh YOU wanna work from home and have that flexibility, and no commute etc, but don't want your husband to,' it's completely different.

It's wrong on so many levels for men of working age to be at home all the time, and moreover, when they ARE working from home, they do shag-all else. Their big important job, their schedule, their zoom calls, their big voice, their everything, trumps everything, and they generally don't lift a finger to help in the house, or with the kids. Multiple threads on here (and conversations with women in real life) have proven that spectacularly.

I know a 29 y.o. couple right now - no kids, but they have a home together. They have worked from home since last March, and the house is a shit tip half the time. Because neither of them ever does anything. HE won't do housework and general chores, and SHE won't do it because HE won't.

So they hire a cleaner 5-6 hours a week, (who does SOME of the housework,) and they do their individual washing. They do their own breakfasts and lunches, but he cooks dinner two thirds of the time, as he likes cooking, and she does the food shop. But she says 'like fuck am I gonna be doing the grunt work when he's sat there playing FIFA 2021 on the XBox, or watching netflix marathons!'

It's not a natural thing for men to knuckle down and do housework and chores, so it falls to the woman very often. If he is stuck at home all the time, dominating EVERYTHING, it's very difficult to maintain a normal home, especially with kids.

@Charlene91

Your issues with it seem very economical when it comes to not WFH. You've also mentioned the positives about the environmental aspect of WFH.

Environmental trumps economical every single time. If we don't have a planet to live on, what good is money? 🤷‍♀️

Without money, we'll be living in mud huts and foraging for food.

What IS needed is a balance.

I love WFH too. The biggest challenge for me has been IT due to working for a LA. They really need to invest in IT.

As far as I am aware, our LA is very much going down the hybrid route. There are some roles that can be done from home, others that absolutely can’t, and some that can have a mix. Mine will be a mix I feel. And I’m fairly happy with that.

I’ve been in the office a quite a few times over the last 8 months and I’ve enjoyed seeing people when I’ve been in. I can definitely see the benefits of a hybrid approach in my role.

Agree with a PP - I think younger people are less likely to want to WFH. Obviously there will always be exceptions. But it’s made our life easier in terms of looking after the DC. Far less stressful, no need for childcare etc.

I imagine it might feel quite lonely if you live alone

@DottyHarmer

As a generalisation, older, settled people with a family love wfh.

Young people starting out, with no home of their own and no wide group of friends just round the corner find it hard.

And change has happened so quickly. One year everyone in the office, a year later and you’re in your bedroom not able to talk to a real person.

As someone else mentioned up thread. Those under the age of 30 are very used to not talking to ‘real people’. Maybe working efficiently virtually will become a skill set, just like giving presentations or in person training.

I’ve been able to wfh since 2006 in a customer facing , so when not in meetings at home. It’s been productive but even I’m hacked off with 5 days a week at home. I drink more, move less, worry more. It needs to be a healthy mix IMO

As people have already mentioned it should be about balance and doing what's right for you.

This time last year I was struggling to find a job I could do to fit around the school run/childcare and my earning potential not being as high as it was when i was working in the city.

Due to WFH I'm able to work full time hours, from home, which means I can do the school run. Plus it's a "city" job on city money!
Which means my DD isn't in childcare, she's at home with us.
DH is also able to do the school run, which we never expected, which means he is around more for DD then we could ever dreamed off!
We also have more expendable income due to not paying for travel and childcare.... it's still being spent, just elsewhere! So the economy is still benefitting.

I just think people need to realise that things change. Yes there will be coffee shops, for example, that will close or maybe need to move locations. But there will also be business that spring up BECAUSE of the new WFH culture...... I just wish someone would start a coffee van business! ....like an ice cream van, but just does coffee and sandwiches. So bored of making my own!

t's like the poster who loves WHF as has more time with baby fast forward 10 years sat in empty house with a screen for company and remotely managed will WFH be so attractive then .
@rwalker

Not if you’ve used the time to build an active social life outside of work, and started hobbies/ got more active as you are less stressed and commuting less. Also spending more time in the local community. Getting to do school runs, making friends locally and so on. I enjoy socialising so much more since WFH, and always look forward to the weekends. I barely got the chance to talk to anyone anyway when I was in the office as I was always rushing around.

I will also add, wfh has enabled managers to see who is really good at their job and who isn’t. Some of those who shout the loudest and have been able to cover up mistakes by talking bollocks haven’t been able to get away with it.

@DottyHarmer then that's very different from my experience and I'm managing a large team in a large national business.

I would also say the younger ones are always the ones to leave bang on 5pm. I think it's people who may not have typically valued flexibility (aka non family people) more of them are coming out the wood work.

Frankly as someone senior in my org I'm grateful that I don't have to deal with the drama that every ten seconds where is the stapler. Ect it's forcing the young ones to learn critical work skills such as think really think if interrupting this person is a good idea. It makes them more independent, therefore steeper learning curve granted but also more productive long term.

Or maybe that's just my company. Fast way to split the wheat from the chaff in my head

@Polkadotties

I will also add, wfh has enabled managers to see who is really good at their job and who isn’t. Some of those who shout the loudest and have been able to cover up mistakes by talking bollocks haven’t been able to get away with it.

Yes, this is true. We lost our Ofsted Outstanding Rating last year because a member of staff wasn’t logging progress updates. At the time she said it was a one off, shouted about it being unfair because she was updating it but there were system issues etc wtc, and as we had no processes to check we believed her. Now we share the updating during wfh days it’s obvious she isn’t as good at her job as the rest of the girls who take notes while delivering excellent childcare.

So what are your kids going to do when they leave schooling ten years time or so and go to online Uni because 'it works' and then start a new job again in front of a screen because everyone is WFH .They have no contact with real people and have to learn everything alone without any support from others.This is the current scenario from my very outgoing twenty something year olds and many of their friends .They are very despondent and many have just given up.

Why not just let people decide. Those that want to travel into an office can and those that prefer to WFH can do so?

It's not the publics duty to either fund transport wages or the profits of large coffee chains.

I don’t agree wfh is bad for younger people in some respects. I know of a few 20-somethings for example without the commitments of children who are now able to work remotely and travel to visit friends or people they are dating without needing to take time off. For some, what they lack in home office space is made up for by being able to be more portable.

Hmmmmm. That sounds like “I’m glad I don’t have to deal with irritating new recruits.” Far better they’re faceless beings in their bedrooms somewhere with their heads down.

@LadyWithLapdog

You’re welcome to get back to the office. For DP this adds 2.5 hours commuting time. His office is completely silent and there’s no camaraderie. The commuting is very stressful. At work he sits in silence doing a job which can be done from home. He’d be out of the house 8am-7pm, waking up at 7. That’s a very long day. My days are as well, I have to go to the office. I don’t think it’s better for the kids to come home and fend for themselves till evening. We’ve done this for many years but there has been a better way. Let’s keep that.

If jobs have to change, why not? Time to rethink what’s important.

My DH had a long commute too and would be out of the house at 6.50. Getting back 12 hours later (or more). He seems to have settled into a routine and does take breaks and occasionally gets out for a while and walks to the local shops. With his commute involving trains and tubes he is not in any hurry to get back to the office.

@MyPatronusIsACat

And I know I'll get flamed for this, but I don't think men should work from home. They need to go back to the workplace now.

Or they could, you know, take some responsibility for themselves and their families and their homes. Just like my partner does. Just like my friends' partners do. If my husband acted like what you describe - well, he wouldn't, because I wouldn't have been stupid enough to marry someone like that, but if he hit his head and his personality changed into something like that, I'd go on strike until he sorted himself out and then I'd fucking leave if he didn't.
The answer isn't just to shove men out the front door with their briefcases so the women can get on with cleaning the house in peace - honestly, what nonsense.

[quote MyPatronusIsACat]@MauvePinkRose I agree. I mean, it's OK to a degree, and is helpful for some - especially those who struggle with childcare.

And it's great to not have to commute, and to be able to roll out of bed 5 minutes before work starts, and not 2 hours before, and to 'finish' and be home at 5.10pm, instead of not getting home til 6.30pm!

But people need to start going back now, if only 2 or 3 days a week, to get back to normality. People cannot work from home forever. It's ridiculous. And there's simply no need for it anymore.

And as you say, many things are waaaaay behind now - some months in some cases, because of the lack of staff in the offices. People doing stuff from home - who work for DVLA, land registry, DWP, Inland revenue, councils, etc, is resulting in things being done much MUCH slower. 'Work from home' is clearly not doable long-term...

And I know I'll get flamed for this, but I don't think men should work from home. They need to go back to the workplace now.

As the OP says, many men have got complacent, lazy, and slovenly, whilst many women have had their workload doubled, and have struggled to run the home, look after the kids, and in some cases, do their own wfh job, with the men stuck in every day, dominating everything.

And whilst a few people say 'oh YOU wanna work from home and have that flexibility, and no commute etc, but don't want your husband to,' it's completely different.

It's wrong on so many levels for men of working age to be at home all the time, and moreover, when they ARE working from home, they do shag-all else. Their big important job, their schedule, their zoom calls, their big voice, their everything, trumps everything, and they generally don't lift a finger to help in the house, or with the kids. Multiple threads on here (and conversations with women in real life) have proven that spectacularly.

I know a 29 y.o. couple right now - no kids, but they have a home together. They have worked from home since last March, and the house is a shit tip half the time. Because neither of them ever does anything. HE won't do housework and general chores, and SHE won't do it because HE won't.

So they hire a cleaner 5-6 hours a week, (who does SOME of the housework,) and they do their individual washing. They do their own breakfasts and lunches, but he cooks dinner two thirds of the time, as he likes cooking, and she does the food shop. But she says 'like fuck am I gonna be doing the grunt work when he's sat there playing FIFA 2021 on the XBox, or watching netflix marathons!'

It's not a natural thing for men to knuckle down and do housework and chores, so it falls to the woman very often. If he is stuck at home all the time, dominating EVERYTHING, it's very difficult to maintain a normal home, especially with kids.[/quote]
This isn't a working from home issue. This is a if you get in a relationship with someone who's been mollycoddling his entire life issue.

I promise you if your pal had a kid with this man, he won't be anymore and will probably do less. Because he's been allowed to.

Not all women accept that behaviour of men. If anyone settles for less that was your choice.

I mean people don't have to go back to the office, that's the point because the masses are going no thank you, for reasons you may notice deem valid but are valid to them.

If you job can totally be done wfh with no need to go into the office, then surely it can be done from any home around the world and probably at a much cheaper cost to employers.
I think a lot of people are likely to be made redundant when jobs are outsourced around the world.

@Fairyliz

If you job can totally be done wfh with no need to go into the office, then surely it can be done from any home around the world and probably at a much cheaper cost to employers. I think a lot of people are likely to be made redundant when jobs are outsourced around the world.

This, 100%. When people see what a genuine free market looks like for their job, they really won’t like it. Why would anybody ever hire an administrator and pay them to live in the SE if they could outsource to a cheaper company with someone with the same English skills and higher qualifications? Likewise events organisation for anything virtual, or IT, or finance, or HR, or PAs, or even most creative roles, or comms.

I hate the lack of day to day interaction. You find out more by walking around an office and listening than in any management meeting. I miss out on working with new colleagues, comradeship, just feeling like an actual person.
I am however bloody glad that I have a job.

@Fairyliz I work for several multi-national companies as a consultant and that COULD have happened years ago. It hasn't. The jobs that could be outsourced to save money (call centre and some development/coding) already have- a long time ago in most cases. The other jobs will stay right where they are.

@Rollercoaster1920

I look forward to the day when a child, cat, dog or partner joining a work call is a rare occurrence again. It is unprofessional.

I include my family and pets in the above statement!

Yeah bollocks to any manifestation of actual real life in work.

I look forward to never having to share an open plan battery farm office with some cunt who has swallowed a fucking loud hailer shouting into their phone making it impossible to concentrate on my work.

[quote MyPatronusIsACat]@MauvePinkRose I agree. I mean, it's OK to a degree, and is helpful for some - especially those who struggle with childcare.

And it's great to not have to commute, and to be able to roll out of bed 5 minutes before work starts, and not 2 hours before, and to 'finish' and be home at 5.10pm, instead of not getting home til 6.30pm!

But people need to start going back now, if only 2 or 3 days a week, to get back to normality. People cannot work from home forever. It's ridiculous. And there's simply no need for it anymore.

And as you say, many things are waaaaay behind now - some months in some cases, because of the lack of staff in the offices. People doing stuff from home - who work for DVLA, land registry, DWP, Inland revenue, councils, etc, is resulting in things being done much MUCH slower. 'Work from home' is clearly not doable long-term...

And I know I'll get flamed for this, but I don't think men should work from home. They need to go back to the workplace now.

As the OP says, many men have got complacent, lazy, and slovenly, whilst many women have had their workload doubled, and have struggled to run the home, look after the kids, and in some cases, do their own wfh job, with the men stuck in every day, dominating everything.

And whilst a few people say 'oh YOU wanna work from home and have that flexibility, and no commute etc, but don't want your husband to,' it's completely different.

It's wrong on so many levels for men of working age to be at home all the time, and moreover, when they ARE working from home, they do shag-all else. Their big important job, their schedule, their zoom calls, their big voice, their everything, trumps everything, and they generally don't lift a finger to help in the house, or with the kids. Multiple threads on here (and conversations with women in real life) have proven that spectacularly.

I know a 29 y.o. couple right now - no kids, but they have a home together. They have worked from home since last March, and the house is a shit tip half the time. Because neither of them ever does anything. HE won't do housework and general chores, and SHE won't do it because HE won't.

So they hire a cleaner 5-6 hours a week, (who does SOME of the housework,) and they do their individual washing. They do their own breakfasts and lunches, but he cooks dinner two thirds of the time, as he likes cooking, and she does the food shop. But she says 'like fuck am I gonna be doing the grunt work when he's sat there playing FIFA 2021 on the XBox, or watching netflix marathons!'

It's not a natural thing for men to knuckle down and do housework and chores, so it falls to the woman very often. If he is stuck at home all the time, dominating EVERYTHING, it's very difficult to maintain a normal home, especially with kids.[/quote]
What a load of utter sexist nonsense. If men have got lazy that's on them, that's not a WFH/office thing. If women ditched men who are lazy, unhelpful etc they wouldn't be stuck in passive aggressive households.

And what is a normal home? We have a child, we split the household chores and we pick up the slack if one of us is ill/out/whatever. Or do you mean the status quo expectation of women doing everything while the big man goes to his big important job and does fuck all else cos he is the penis-haver?

if you wfh, you're just moving your office. So the demand profile of locations changes. Maybe there isn't a pret on every corner in central london. But maybe instead there is a pret in one corner of a few more towns with lots of people workign from home and popping out locally for lunch?

without the demand things start to grind to a halt. That’s what causes recessions.

There are usually winners and losers in times of structural change. The end result is seldom an overall drop in the economy, even if there might be a drop for a few months or even quarters.

Winners from WFH have been home extensions snd furnishers, garden rooms and furniture, BBQs. Local providers of daily/temporary office space. Home delivery of grocery services etc.

Loads more things can be done online. My solicitors have even accepted on line payments. No minimum on contact payments in our local store have been brilliant for me less good for them because I used to have to pad out my shopping to the min £5.

Losers sandwich bars and coffee houses around office only areas.