To have completely changed my mind about WFH?

[MauvePinkRose]

I know there is a WFH thread but I mean this more generally than the specific things about it that are driving me to drink!

Pre pandemic, I would have said that WFH was a positive thing that employers should absolutely allow, reducing traffic and therefore pollution, allowing more quality time at home.

Now, I’ve changed my mind.

I think it’s having a negative impact on public transport, which in turn will lead to redundancies and reduced public transport, which is bad news for those who can’t drive. It is also having a knock on effect on things like coffee kiosks and sandwich bars.

Then, I’m not convinced that WFH is as productive as people think. I don’t know what’s going on with DVLA for instance but I am still waiting for a driving license I sent off for three months ago and you can’t get through on the phones.

It’s turned family homes into workplaces and thus impacts everyone. I’ve had some really stressful and unpleasant times because of it.

And I do think it’s not very healthy. Dp rarely leaves the house without me, has gained weight and falls ill all the time as I just feel he isn’t gaining any natural immunity.

I’ll probably be flamed by all the WFHers now

Haven't RTFT but DVLA have been striking

www.pcs.org.uk/news-events/news/strong-support-dvla-strike-month-long-action-underway

[quote Wroxie]@Fairyliz I work for several multi-national companies as a consultant and that COULD have happened years ago. It hasn't. The jobs that could be outsourced to save money (call centre and some development/coding) already have- a long time ago in most cases. The other jobs will stay right where they are.[/quote]
Wfh might bring a lot of coding and even call centre jobs back from India. I know it has in certain banks.

@schnubbins

So what are your kids going to do when they leave schooling ten years time or so and go to online Uni because 'it works' and then start a new job again in front of a screen because everyone is WFH .They have no contact with real people and have to learn everything alone without any support from others. This is the current scenario from my very outgoing twenty something year olds and many of their friends .They are very despondent and many have just given up.

This exactly. In addition to the service industry/travel/cafes/coffee bars/shops suffering, the young are being badly affected by this 'work from home' obsession too ... (school age young, AND younger people in the workplace...)

The lack of contact and support with their peers, is affecting many young people massively. It's OK for the jaded and cynical not-so-young (who have been working 20-odd years or more,) as they are glad to be away from the commute, and working with people they dislike. They want to stay working from home because it suits THEM.. It's massively selfish to want to continue working from home permanently, and expecting that this is the way it should be forever.

It's unsustainable, and is bad for the well-being and mental health of many. As WELL as being bad for society.

(Some) people need to stop being so narrow minded and self absorbed. Things need to get back to normal. People need to get back to work in the workplace/office, and 'work from home' needs to be reined right in...

Google has already started cutting the pay of employees who have moved to less expensive areas than the Bay Area and are working from home.Other companies such as Zillow and Reddit are following suit.the pay cuts are from between 10-25 percent of Gross Salary.

Some of the issues for folk has been that sports centres, clubs etc haven't been able to run because of guidelines. Young folk will have social lives again, just not necessarily around their desk at work.

@PosiePerkinPootleFlump

It's shit for young people who have no middle management to learn from properly because they are all sitting at home. And really selfish on the part of people who learned loads from interacting with colleagues when they were more junior, but now can't be arsed to go in to help develop more junior staff.

This. DS2 graduated in 2019 and started work in 2020. His entire working life to date has been WFH. He knows no different and can't see any disadvantages. I see what he is missing out on. Mentoring, the experience and expertise of colleagues. Yes he can ask for help but it's not the same as sitting in an office with people who know your job. Socially it's rubbish as well. New career, new city, but no new friends. I remember making lifelong friends among all the young people who started work around the same time as me. DS hasn't even met them. In fact there was really no point in moving to the location of his workplace. At the time he assumed it would be temporary and of course he wanted the excitement of living in his own place.

I can see DH getting WfH fatigue.

It was fine for 15 months. There was a pandemic, he was busy. Everyone else was on a screen. Now there is a choice, or rather his employer has a choice, he would like a decision. His employer is a bit of an outlier and so he is not yet required to go into the office, but others he has contact with are now required to be back in person, which has led to him having to go in anyway for specific meetings.

I think DH is sick of being stuck in the spare bedroom, which is fine as a workplace, but still the spare bedroom. I am sick of hearing the drone of Zoom calls, though I am able to get out and see friends, go for walks and go shopping (I am self employed and able to work flexibly). I also don't like the loss of privacy/independence, now we see each other all day. He also misses interaction with colleagues, and the chance to have casual conversations to explore topics, rather than always have formal meetings. He would like to know new colleagues better.

I am not bothered by the plight of city centre coffee shops. Where we are there were always a lot of wfh'ers and a good local coffee shop where people used to congregate mid morning for a change of scenery and the chance of social interaction. Those Prets will move to the suburbs. And I see longer distance train routes thriving. We have spent the summer two hours from London. DH got the 6.45 this morning. At the moment it looks like he will need to do this once a week, not cheap but cheaper than a weekly season ticket from where we were, and less time than a daily commute.

Part of the problem is that no one really knows what will happen with the pandemic over the winter. DHs employer may be right in being cautious and not setting out clear requirements until we have this winter over. But generally I assume many people are yearning for normal, albeit a new normal informed by practices and routines that worked through lockdown.

@Ozanj exactly - and in terms of the well-paid jobs that require specific skills, it may be true that some of those will open up to people outside of the UK (but not in most regulated industries). But it will also be true that people in the UK will find they can apply for similar jobs all over the world.

@Fairyliz

If you job can totally be done wfh with no need to go into the office, then surely it can be done from any home around the world and probably at a much cheaper cost to employers. I think a lot of people are likely to be made redundant when jobs are outsourced around the world.

Do you think that employers are giving us jobs out of the goodness of their hearts? Employers will try and do this where they can with or without U.K. employees WFH. Indeed, they've been doing it where they can since long before covid. I don't see why WFH would change that.

But people need to start going back now, if only 2 or 3 days a week, to get back to normality. People cannot work from home forever. It's ridiculous. And there's simply no need for it anymore.
This is all opinion, no facts. Why do they need to, why is it ridiculous, why can’t they WFH forever?

And I know I'll get flamed for this, but I don't think men should work from home. They need to go back to the workplace now… It's wrong on so many levels for men of working age to be at home all the time… It's not a natural thing for men to knuckle down and do housework and chores
Are you OK? Like, actually OK? Did you hit your head and wake up in prehistoric cave times? Is it that the penises get in the way of the hoover, or…?

Haven’t read TFT but I advertise jobs all day long, for hundreds of different companies around the U.K., Europe and the states. I would say only 10% of these are allowing WFH. So I really don’t think WFH is going to be as big as people think it is. City centres will recover, it might just take time.

Personally I love WFH and have no desire to go back to an office. Actually, I lie, 1-2 days a week might be okay but no more than that.

@olidora63

I think WFH is a disaster for young people.Sleeping and working in the same room , not exercising and being in the physical company of others, is not good for MH !

I agree. It really isn't. And I think people are still high on the novelty of it all, along with fear of covid (understandable) and will come to see how awful it is a few years down the line.

I spent several years working fully remote, as a freelancer. It was miserable. My mental health completely nosedived. It's so much harder to motivate yourself to go outside if you don't actually need to. Being in the office forces you to commute, walk to the station, etc. It forces you to interact with people. It's much easier to go along to after-work drinks or pop into the gym on your way home. For anyone who already struggles with depression and motivation, having no real reason to ever leave their home is terrible.

We are social beings. We just aren't made to sit at home alone all day, working and eating and relaxing and sleeping in the same space.

I renewed my licence very recently, it came within 2 weeks. Can you send them an email? As that's a long wait time.

@PosiePerkinPootleFlump

It's shit for young people who have no middle management to learn from properly because they are all sitting at home.

And really selfish on the part of people who learned loads from interacting with colleagues when they were more junior, but now can't be arsed to go in to help develop more junior staff.

100% this! ^

Different folks/strokes. Works really well for us.

*They want to stay working from home because it suits THEM.. It's massively selfish to want to continue working from home permanently, and expecting that this is the way it should be forever.

It's unsustainable, and is bad for the well-being and mental health of many. As WELL as being bad for society.

(Some) people need to stop being so narrow minded and self absorbed. Things need to get back to normal. People need to get back to work in the workplace/office, and 'work from home' needs to be reined right in...*

It's a interesting perspective because your right but it's not some people - it's all people need to stop being selfish. That also includes anyone that demands every other person had to work in a office 9-5 because it benefits their own preference. I would call that also - narrow minded and self absorbed. There will be flex, hybrid working is coming and throwing moral judgements out on the masses will just make you look moronic and a little ignorant.

Like it or not society is shifting. Companies will adapt or die, depending on their ability to recruit and retain the best staff. That will be chosen by the people. People forget companies are run by humans, and the mentality of be grateful and expect nothing in return is going to rapidly vanish, sped up by recession. Loyalty cannot be demanded by only one side.

I don't buy coffee/food at work. I always bring my own. It's not my job to supplement a large coffee chain. Buses and trains are so expensive. The commute can be long for many people, mine was 1.5 -2 hours depending on traffic, each way. I personally believe wfh is the way forward. Pollution is high epecially where I live, surely less traffic is better?

I think the whole WFH issue is entirely different for different sets of people. If you have a young family and have to do drop-offs/pick-ups, put a dinner on for the kids etc, and then log on again and make up your time it's a godsend. If you're a young 20 something intern, looking to show willing, make professional connections and enhance your career opportunities, it's a curse.

If you're a professional self-promoter and have got where you are by manipulating others and claiming other people's good work for yourself to enhance your own standing, then it's also a curse.

I think it's pretty obvious that for most people, hybrid working will be the future. There's simply no need to go into an office fulltime, when you can easily log on from home. But there's no need to work from home all the time when there's important professional face-to-face meetings to be had, business clients to form relationships with, the benefits of group dialogue in person, knowing exactly who's who in your team etc etc.

A mix of both is good I would imagine for most people. And, like a previous poster mentioned, let's not forget that the previous model of the working world massively impacted working parents in a negative way. It was so geared towards the linear working professional, who could dedicate 100% of their time in person to work, with no other commitments. A hybrid scenario allows parents entry into this world, with the flexibility to perform just as well.

@burritofan

But people need to start going back now, if only 2 or 3 days a week, to get back to normality. People cannot work from home forever. It's ridiculous. And there's simply no need for it anymore. This is all opinion, no facts. Why do they need to, why is it ridiculous, why can’t they WFH forever?

And I know I'll get flamed for this, but I don't think men should work from home. They need to go back to the workplace now… It's wrong on so many levels for men of working age to be at home all the time… It's not a natural thing for men to knuckle down and do housework and chores
Are you OK? Like, actually OK? Did you hit your head and wake up in prehistoric cave times? Is it that the penises get in the way of the hoover, or…?

This ^ all of this

I have noticed many friends working from home gaining weight, except one. She always makes time to excerise and eat well. So I think people have to factor in more excerise if they're working from home.

I voted YABU.

On your points:

• Several posters have mentioned that public transport is as busy as ever and if you do work from home then your need to drive is surely less. In my mind this is a win for the environment and for former commuters like myself. I do not miss paying £400 a month to sit in an office and have two hours of my day gobbled up because of it.

Public transport will always be needed providing there is a workforce sustained by essential workers and those who have to 'turn up', of which there are many, so I don't understand your point around redundancies hitting this sector disproportionately.

Also, it's not my job to keep my closest big coffee chain afloat with my former patronage of max 2 x flat whites a week, but I'm sure a lot of smaller businesses are grateful for the influx of people supporting them as a result of living and working closer by.

You have no real evidence to suggest that working from home is the reason for your experience with the DVLA. I've received a new license during the pandemic within a reasonable timeframe, as have other posters. I agree that it is murder trying to get hold of banks due to the spiel they give you about home working/Covid-19. There is, of course, a spillover of personal and professional time which is tricky to navigate when WFH, particularly for those who are not blessed with a lot of space.

As for the health aspect, your partner has chosen to rarely leave the house and to get himself into the situation he has. His working location can hardly cop the blame for that!

As others have alluded to, not everything has to be all good or all bad. Hybrid working is great for some, WFH or office-based for others. I think this conversation has been done to death and we just need to accept that there are pros and cons to every set up and navigate our working lives accordingly.

@candlelightsatdawn

That will be chosen by the people. People forget companies are run by humans, and the mentality of be grateful and expect nothing in return is going to rapidly vanish, sped up by recession. Loyalty cannot be demanded by only one side.

Absolutely, 100% agree with this. The balance is indeed shifting, as you say, influenced by recession but also higher expectations from workers about the balance between work life/home life and the general return for their time. I think this is a massive cultural shift brought about by the pandemic and it's impact upon the professional world. Employers will be expected to provide a good quality offer, and those that can't will find themselves out of business.

Then, I’m not convinced that WFH is as productive as people think. I don’t know what’s going on with DVLA for instance but I am still waiting for a driving license I sent off for three months ago and you can’t get through on the phones.

DVLA isn't, and never has been, run properly. It's not a good exemplar of any principle. It was shit pre-covid.
See also HMRC.

Apart from Goldman Sachs that is, who hope that their excessive pay offers to new interns will override quality of life factors in working for them...................

The world is changing. People have always hated change but they adapt. COVID has just accelerated a change that was gradually happening anyway.

Flexible base working is clearly the way the world is going. People will work at home, in hubs near home and often in a mix of places. This will have an adverse impact on some businesses and some aspects of people’s well-being and a positive impact on other businesses and aspects of people’s well-being.

The days of 9-5 office work are numbered, the world is never going to stay static, there isn’t a ‘normal’ to go back to, just ever evolving ways of working. Businesses will mostly do what suits their bottom line, for some that will be home working, some a mix of home and office, some full office working. Fewer and fewer people work in 9-5 office jobs anyway, it’s an old fashioned dying way of working.