To have completely changed my mind about WFH?

[MauvePinkRose]

I know there is a WFH thread but I mean this more generally than the specific things about it that are driving me to drink!

Pre pandemic, I would have said that WFH was a positive thing that employers should absolutely allow, reducing traffic and therefore pollution, allowing more quality time at home.

Now, I’ve changed my mind.

I think it’s having a negative impact on public transport, which in turn will lead to redundancies and reduced public transport, which is bad news for those who can’t drive. It is also having a knock on effect on things like coffee kiosks and sandwich bars.

Then, I’m not convinced that WFH is as productive as people think. I don’t know what’s going on with DVLA for instance but I am still waiting for a driving license I sent off for three months ago and you can’t get through on the phones.

It’s turned family homes into workplaces and thus impacts everyone. I’ve had some really stressful and unpleasant times because of it.

And I do think it’s not very healthy. Dp rarely leaves the house without me, has gained weight and falls ill all the time as I just feel he isn’t gaining any natural immunity.

I’ll probably be flamed by all the WFHers now

[frazzledasarock]

Nobody ever spends time between meeting being productive whilst in the office.

I know DH also takes fewer breaks WFH as he doesn’t need to nip out for a vape every so often.

I see nothing wrong in people rollin out of bed and logging on. If we need cameras on I’ll usually warn my team beforehand. And I’m always on time in meeting with my cup of tea ready.

I’m more productive with online meetings, I tend to get on with work whilst waiting for the meeting to begin. In the office we’d all be standing around chatting before meetings. Nobody was being productive or working whilst hanging about waiting for meetings to start.

I reckon our office will go down to one day a week or as and when needed.

[CharityDingle]

People who can't manage effectively are always 9/10 micro managers and their worst nightmare is wfh as they see it as a loss of control. Madly enough if they weren't such lazy managers they can effectively manage much better when WFH actually and have more control than ever before and it's easier to monitor someone's work remotely rather than watching over their shoulder hovering (like that ever gives a true indication of work output)

People leave managers, not jobs on the whole. I for one am sorry about your manager.

@candlelightsatdawn you are spot on. Lazy is her middle name. Probably the worst manager I ever had.
Thankfully we have parted ways. I would say her head exploded when wfh became a necessity/ norm over the past eighteen months.

We also knew that in previous times, she did even less than usual on days that she was wfh.

[Gwenhwyfar]

"I know DH also takes fewer breaks WFH as he doesn’t need to nip out for a vape every so often."

WFH is good so people can smoke more. I've heard it all now.

[frazzledasarock]

@Gwenhwyfar

"I know DH also takes fewer breaks WFH as he doesn’t need to nip out for a vape every so often."

WFH is good so people can smoke more. I've heard it all now.

Yes that’s precisely what I said 🙄

Either way those who really desperately want to work in the office should carry on and do so. And reap the benefits they feel they will get from being in the office.

Those of us who are happy WFH will happily continue with that.

[jewel1968]

If I had a company that sold widgets and before the pandemic everyone came into the office to sell the widgets. Imagine that on average my company sold 100 widgets a week.

Then pandemic hit and my people all worked from home and we are now selling 110 widgets on average a week why would I want them to come into the office if they didn't want to.

If however it murkier than that and it isn't that easy to assess productivity then I can understand some people thinking that at least if they're in the office I can see them selling widgets ,(yeah right).

I know it's not that simple but I think some people think people are more likely to be more productive in the office. I like the office because I like people but I doubt I am more productive. I suspect I am less productive cos I am chatting to people which I call networking

[BigDaddio]

Before the lockdown I was working a hybrid model - 2 days in office B, 2 days at home and 1 day in office A(which was my base office historically - and on my contract). I used to drive to work (130 miles a week - better than the 350 I used to do when working every day on office A) and take lunch from home so no contribution to the work place economy - except for the odd choccy bar from the newsagent.
However I was made redundant from that company - not just me , there was about 160 people let go and after 6 months of hunting found another role. As yet have not been into the office nor met any peers f2f ( all of my team are overseas though). Can't say am enjoying 100% wfh - its far too isolating and knowledge transfer is patchy at best. I try to maintain a line between home and work but evenings are often impacted as I get caught on calls from colleagues in other time-zones.

[DMPanes]

I think you have raised a very interesting point. Thank you.
I would like to say this though....
The world was flung in the WFH culture overnight, with very little adaptation, aquisition of appropriate resources etc etc etc etc and I think it's a tad unfair if people say it doesn't work for them. Well of course it won't under those conditions. How could it?! On the upside it has allowed people to free up more more time with their families, allowed them to take part in their local community based projects, clubs and events because they are simply available to do so as the commuting just stopped this being an option. Mental health has improved for a lot of people under this context. Another bonus for some people is financially they are better off. Some people have also discovered that they are able to work more productively. But then there is the flip side as I started out saying, the world was thrown into it. For lots of people employers rightly or wrongly have not stepped up to provide adequate resources, put appropriate and applicable policies and procedures in place, there has been no mental health guidance either. Then there those poor souls who have had no choice but to work from their kitchen table so to speak and thus do not have the appropriate working atmosphere. Ideally, people would be able to carve out for themselves an appropriate work space. Learning to walk away from the day job and step into ones private and social life is a problem not just for those that work from home. many people struggle with this and find it hard to walk away from the office!!! I think it also depends on what job you have and what the employer expectations are. THen you have workaholics who will have negative and inappropriate working practices no matter where their desk resides!!!! You have people with different personalities too, people with different levels of confidence, people who actually THRIVE being on their own etc etc.

As for the sandwich bars and all that, I am sorry but that's life! These businesses only existed because of commuters but that doesn't mean they should continue or even need to continue. I know quite a few people who have saved an absolute fortune by cooking at home and getting themselves into some very clever and serious beneficial on the health routines by cutting out the crap in their diet. But saving money has been an absolute god send for a lot of people i know. So although jobs maybe lost, there are opportunities for people to diversity and even change their career paths into something else. As one door closes another opens perhaps? Because people are saving money they have in some instances been able to choose different locations to buy houses . Some people are saving their commuting costs and building extensions in their lofts, converting garages (is what we did) or adding on a small study downstairs. Obviously there are people who can't do this for a variety of reasons and we need to respectful and compassionate to those that can't but at least people who can are now able to do so. Pollution is a MASSIVE MASSIVE MASSIVE problem in our world at the moment and I for one would rather see our world becoming cleaner and healthier.

I guess the moral of the story is that a lot of people are not well equipped for this change. Totally thrown upon them and this is what needs to be looked into and support given. Do I think it's healthy to be in an office with other people? Absolutely. Do I think it's healthy to be able to work from home and save money, pollution etc etc etc of costs? Absolutely? It should be about balance. For so long the British Culture has been ridiculous and it's WORK WORK WORK and people have missed out on family time, personal time, community work and meeting and mixing socially with people within their own communities and having more time with their families and extended families. So having a mix of both for a lot of people is ideal. Long may it continue that way. But people need the right support to form the right efficient and effective habits to be perform appropriately and thrive. That's what's missing!!!

I believe we are on the cusp of a paradigm shift and hurrah!!

[TheKeatingFive]

Well yes we were thrown into it, but we’ve had many many months now to get used to it. So I’m not sure how much water that position holds.

The pattern I’m seeing most now are companies that were unsure at the start, then getting very enthusiastic about how well it was working/making big promises, then realising over a longer term that it causes many issues of its own and rowing back. I expect that pattern will prove fairly typical - and crunch points for some companies might come a bit later when their competitors are back.

So i don’t agree with this at all, sorry

I believe we are on the cusp of a paradigm shift

However, now is the time for companies to try out hybrid models and/or wfh forever and see how it works, outside a pandemic. Personally I don’t have huge expectations of long term change, but perhaps I’m wrong. I also think that what works for individual companies will be different. I guess what I’m saying is the experiment starts for real now.

[DMPanes]

The KeatingFive, you have made some interesting points. Thank you.
Some people have got used to it and are thriving. Other people not so because a) they'd rather not (which is totally fine) and b) other people haven't because they are unable to due to lack of resources and support. I used to work for a very large Oil & Gas company who wanted to create virtual teams. I put a workshop together to prove that they were ill equipped and needed to rethink how they would role it out. It made them sit up and think!!!!! Thankfully they sorted it out and put the right manpower, infrastructure and cultural requirements in place in order to make it work. None of that could have been achieved with out clear goals with associated objectives that were SMART objectives in line with everything else. I do agree with you that for some companies working from home is not necessary and indeed even wanted just by the very nature of what they are. I agree with you about crunch points. You have a valid point there.
However, we have had many months to get used to it yes, but for some people for the reasons I have outlined twice now, it's been a total nightmare and lots of people have been let down and have not got used to it and it wfh is still a total mess. How can they get used to it whether it's full time wfh or even a x1 day a week properly if they don't have the resources, training and policies and procedures in place??? Surely that makes sense does it not? So yes, a lot has to change and quickly.

I'm a bit miffed and frustrated that you seem to have completely ignored my stance on how it can be beneficial for a lot of people, doing certain types of jobs or working for certain types of companies. To say that has left me flaberghasted is an understatement.

Wfh is here to stay!
People should be given a choice!
People deserve a work life balance!
If there are those persons who wish to work 40 hours a week, commute an hour or more a day and are happy with that then they should be allowed to do so.
People need choice!
People need companies to support them!
The world needs to bring down carbon emissions and fast!
Governments needs to pull their finger out and support this.

[TillyTopper]

I honestly love working from home! I'm so productive and as my team is spread across the world it's easier to start earlier for Asia, take a break in the middle and finish later (for US). But I think it needs to be a bit of both - what about grads just starting for example, they need to get to know ppl.

As for coffee shops and "side industries" to commuting I think they need to move on to something else. There are probably way too many of them anyway

[TheKeatingFive]

I'm a bit miffed and frustrated that you seem to have completely ignored my stance on how it can be beneficial for a lot of people, doing certain types of jobs or working for certain types of companies. To say that has left me flaberghasted is an understatement.

Trying to push past your flowery language Fundamentally it’s about what works for the company as a whole.

And wfh also doesn't work for many individuals.

There will be realignment in the medium term and people will shift jobs according to their preferences. There will be more wfh roles, though I expect we differ on our expectations around how many more.

Governments needs to pull their finger out and support this.

Governments have a lot invested in the status quo. A big shift has huge implications for both public transport and commercial property, which would have big consequences for society as a whole. Commercial property funds were a very popular choice for private pension funds for example.

I expect the government will be doing a lot behind the scenes to encourage back to the office, though again they seem happy for companies to experiment with hybrid models at least for the moment.

[RobinPenguins]

I worked fully from home from March 2020 to the start of this month. 18 months was more than long enough to find out that it was a fucking terrible idea for me and I hated it. Back in the office 2 or 3 days a week now that I have the choice again, and it’s great. The overwhelming majority of my colleagues have chosen the same. Those who haven’t, maybe they’ll find themselves a bit sidelined, maybe they won’t. It will take time to understand how that will all work through.

But then, I didn’t have a commute that stopped me enjoying life because I never chose to take a job with a commute that stopped me enjoying life. Perhaps more fool me, since I could have reaped the benefits of the salary and opportunities, then worked from home and pulled the ladder up behind me.

[Kljnmw3459]

Like others have said, I agree that a flexible model is ideal. I like WFH and I say that as someone in a small flat, no garden etc..... But there are aspects of working that are difficult to replicate from home. Not impossible but definitely difficult. In the same way that some things are easier when WFH and many things are unimpacted either way.

As for the impact on public transport, I think the price rises and reduced services have been putting people off for many many years now. I know I would have switched to using a car years ago if I only somehow had managed to pass the driving test!

[CatRamsey]

I can't stand working from home. I have opted to come back into the office full time and I feel so much better for it. I live alone and its soul destroying being stuck in the house all day. My computer is also my hobby, so it's not like I walk away from my computer at the end of the day. I unplug my work laptop and stay in the same seat to do the things I enjoy, in the same room. I don't like bringing work into my home.
I am also not neurotyical and need routine. I was previously doing 3 days in the office but even that wasn't rigid enough for me. Now I'm back 5 days in the office I have a proper routine which I found very hard to stick to when I was WFH. I'm so much more upbeat from taking to people and can focus on work so much better. I can completely see the benefits of working from home, but for the negatives outweigh them for me.

[Rhinothunder]

It will also be interesting to see what rising energy costs do to peoples willingness to wfh.

Personally I hate it and am super glad to be back in the office.

[LST]

@Rhinothunder

It will also be interesting to see what rising energy costs do to peoples willingness to wfh.

Personally I hate it and am super glad to be back in the office.

The office is always too cold for me and I aren't sure it would be welcome to wear my slippers and dressing gown under blankets at the office !

[Tealightsandd]

@Rhinothunder

It will also be interesting to see what rising energy costs do to peoples willingness to wfh.

Personally I hate it and am super glad to be back in the office.

I don't think it will have huge impact. Those most in favour of full-time WFH will be more affluent and more able to shoulder the extra energy costs. The price increases will hit the people already hit hard by WFH. Those on low incomes - who can't afford a suitable WFH environment. It's one blow after another for the lower paid. Stuck trying to work in cramped and/inappropriate conditions, the £20 UC cut, and now this.

I hope going forwards we'll see a more balanced fairer approach wrt WFH (and a repeal of the £20 UC cut). More flexibility particularly for the disabled, carers, and the CEV is great. Full-time WFH for the majority isn't so much.

[Hullbilly]

@Rhinothunder

It will also be interesting to see what rising energy costs do to peoples willingness to wfh.

Personally I hate it and am super glad to be back in the office.

It won't be a patch on the £400 pcm we were paying on fares and petrol previously.

[Hrpuffnstuff1]

This thread is hilarious because we have the wfh on one side and office bods on another.
One party is looking over at the other demanding that they do this that and the other, basically gossiping and sniping at each other.

It's like a virtual office.


And to think some miss that culture.

[Rhinothunder]

Fair point re the travel costs.

Obviously hard core wfh people have sturdier mental health than me!

By the end I felt so isolated and particularly disconnected from my job. Spent wfh days fitting g chores around the house/ kids around work .

Never fully focused on home or work. Just blended together. It's been a new lease of life getting back into the office. Now home is home and work is work again. Been great for productivity and enthusiasm for both work and home life.

Still amazes me to see professional people on conference calls on airpods at the school gate- how their companies and clients tolerate it I've no idea (these aren't fools with silly jobs- I'm taking pwc / KPMG/ lawyers etx)

[RobinPenguins]

Still amazes me to see professional people on conference calls on airpods at the school gate- how their companies and clients tolerate it I've no idea (these aren't fools with silly jobs- I'm taking pwc / KPMG/ lawyers etx)

Yeah I’m public sector and we would not get away with that. And rightly so, tbh, I don’t think it’s acceptable. Would be pretty fucked off if we were paying £££ of public money for our consultants to be picking up their kids while meetings were happening, so hopefully they keep it to internal calls only.

[rookiemere]

You've articulated that well @Rhinothunder , it's exactly how I feel atm, in fact should be working right now .

Re the PWC types at school gates - I have a few friends who work for that type of company, and they encourage the whole blending of work and home. So they don't have separate home emails and take calls whenever and wherever. On the surface it's lovely and means people can pick up their DCs, but the flip-side is that they are never properly off from work - our friend took a work call when we were away.

Some people like living like that, I couldn't bear it and it's one of the reasons I've shyed away from any further promotions, as I need my downtime to be my own.

[Rhinothunder]

Yes exactly . Aside from the confidentiality issues etc, they're just ignoring their kids who you can see trying to tell them important stuff about their day. So wierd. I've even had a conversation with someone who turns out was also listening in on a meeting which only came to light when they interrupted what we were talking about to contribute to their work chat! Bizarre!

[PostItNow]

Still amazes me to see professional people on conference calls on airpods at the school gate- how their companies and clients tolerate it I've no idea (these aren't fools with silly jobs- I'm taking pwc / KPMG/ lawyers etx)
This is tolerated because these people are talented, can easily demonstrate how much money they make for their companies and are expected to work well over contracted hours. The clients despite being very senior are human beings too and have life going on around them....holidays, evening and weekends are no excuse for not working though. We just dropped our kids at Uni at the weekend - dh took Friday off and we stayed overnight in a hotel - but a client wanted a piece of work done on Friday but comprised on Saturday morning 8am. Dh got up at 4am and did the piece of work - this is normal - the client always gets what they want but they aren't always as demanding. As for chatting at the school gate - it's no different to chatting in an open plan office space. If a conversation is confidential - you find somewhere private to take it. Dh will often take a client call whilst we are travelling in the car together, clients want him to join the call, people have busy diaries so they have to be flexible.

[Peaseblossum22]

@PostItNow

Still amazes me to see professional people on conference calls on airpods at the school gate- how their companies and clients tolerate it I've no idea (these aren't fools with silly jobs- I'm taking pwc / KPMG/ lawyers etx)
This is tolerated because these people are talented, can easily demonstrate how much money they make for their companies and are expected to work well over contracted hours. The clients despite being very senior are human beings too and have life going on around them....holidays, evening and weekends are no excuse for not working though. We just dropped our kids at Uni at the weekend - dh took Friday off and we stayed overnight in a hotel - but a client wanted a piece of work done on Friday but comprised on Saturday morning 8am. Dh got up at 4am and did the piece of work - this is normal - the client always gets what they want but they aren't always as demanding. As for chatting at the school gate - it's no different to chatting in an open plan office space. If a conversation is confidential - you find somewhere private to take it. Dh will often take a client call whilst we are travelling in the car together, clients want him to join the call, people have busy diaries so they have to be flexible.

Thats fine , but there is a massive issue with confidentiality. I am in one of these professions as is my husband and I know of several cases now where information has been disclosed in such circumstances. In one case a barrister was discussing a client matter is a public place (think school property) , something I am sure they would never have dreamed of doing pre pandemic.

The scenarios which you describe happened pre pandamic and are frankly perfectly normal practice for senior associates , partners etc We have just come back from holiday and my husband had to deal with several matter as did I, but the more flexible ways of working have resulted in a blurring of boundaries which has not all been positive.