To have completely changed my mind about WFH?

[MauvePinkRose]

I know there is a WFH thread but I mean this more generally than the specific things about it that are driving me to drink!

Pre pandemic, I would have said that WFH was a positive thing that employers should absolutely allow, reducing traffic and therefore pollution, allowing more quality time at home.

Now, I’ve changed my mind.

I think it’s having a negative impact on public transport, which in turn will lead to redundancies and reduced public transport, which is bad news for those who can’t drive. It is also having a knock on effect on things like coffee kiosks and sandwich bars.

Then, I’m not convinced that WFH is as productive as people think. I don’t know what’s going on with DVLA for instance but I am still waiting for a driving license I sent off for three months ago and you can’t get through on the phones.

It’s turned family homes into workplaces and thus impacts everyone. I’ve had some really stressful and unpleasant times because of it.

And I do think it’s not very healthy. Dp rarely leaves the house without me, has gained weight and falls ill all the time as I just feel he isn’t gaining any natural immunity.

I’ll probably be flamed by all the WFHers now

I said that middle class, well off people won't suffer as much from WFH because unlike people living in inner cities with no cars, they can drive to the countryside or a nice walk

But you can live in inner cities & not have a car & be middle class. You can be middle class & have a car but never drive to the countryside because cities tend to have lots of parks.

Hybrid' often means that people can't be in the office five days a week if they want to be because of lack of space. That means those who don't want to WFH are forced to do it, whether they want to or not.

So you are against any remote working then? Or are you against businesses that don't allow choice?

The statistics all show that the well off middle classes are far more likely to wfh. The poorer & working class are less likely to have that option in the first place.

For me with 2 young children WFH has certainly been helpful, my husband and I haven’t had the stress of commutes and pick ups. Train commuting, no seats etc was horrible.
However, now I do feel more lonely than ever before. I miss people, I miss the buzz of London. I do think WFH forever won’t work for me personally.

*I think 99% of people arguing in favour of wfh just enjoy the creature comforts tbh

• e.g. roll out of bed at 08:50 and switch laptop on and chill out in your dressing gown.*

And that is a problem?

@gibletjane

I said that middle class, well off people won't suffer as much from WFH because unlike people living in inner cities with no cars, they can drive to the countryside or a nice walk

But you can live in inner cities & not have a car & be middle class. You can be middle class & have a car but never drive to the countryside because cities tend to have lots of parks.

Hybrid' often means that people can't be in the office five days a week if they want to be because of lack of space. That means those who don't want to WFH are forced to do it, whether they want to or not.

So you are against any remote working then? Or are you against businesses that don't allow choice?

God, you're pedantic.

Yes, that's theoretically possible. But it's not exactly news that middle class people TEND to have nicer houses, with more space, bigger gardens, access to a car, etc. is it? Are you refuting this? You think it's not a fact that WFH disproportionately benefits those who are financially comfortable?

I'm against businesses that don't allow choice, and the fact that it's only going to get more and more common for companies not to have offices at all. As I've been saying all along. I wish people could read.

I'm against businesses that don't allow choice, and the fact that it's only going to get more and more common for companies not to have offices at all. As I've been saying all along. I wish people could read.

But where are you reading that offices are going to disappear? And thousands of jobs don't involve offices.

I'm against businesses that don't allow choice, and the fact that it's only going to get more and more common for companies not to have offices at all. As I've been saying all along. I wish people could read.

I've been reading you calling people selfish & vile because they prefer to remote work some or all of the time because that is better for them personally. No point blaming individuals because some businesses close their offices. Business will always do what ultimately benefits them.

@ArblemarchTFruitbat

No one wants to work anymore!

But how many people have ever worked because they enjoy it? I'm not saying no one has - there are people who love their jobs - but, particularly in the sectors that would formerly have been office-based and are now WFH, are there really so many people who would be working if they didn't have to?

I think so, yes.

Work is about so much more than just money. Sense of purpose, an identity - and face to face social interaction with other human beings.

We see it with big money lottery winners who were in low paid jobs before their win.

Many keep on working - often in the same low paid job.

Lots of people want better pay (particularly those not earning enough to meet the spiralling cost of living, especially housing).

They also want fair terms and conditions (inc. perhaps a balance of 1/2 days a week remote working where possible depending on the role - with further flexibility for the disabled, carers, and currently CEV).

But generally many people do want to work.

@speakout

*I think 99% of people arguing in favour of wfh just enjoy the creature comforts tbh

• e.g. roll out of bed at 08:50 and switch laptop on and chill out in your dressing gown.*

And that is a problem?

It's a problem if WFH full-time becomes the default. Not for the privileged - those who have the luxury of a comfortable home environment suitable for WFH, and who are at a settled stage of life.

Huge problem for the disadvantaged - those living in noisy and/or cramped spaces and/or in difficult relationships, and the young (plus mature career changers) - who will miss out on the opportunities that in person interaction offers. Networking, professional development, in-person mentoring, the social interaction, experiencing the rich diversity of life by working with people of varying ages and with different life experiences, stages of life, and backgrounds.

Young people face starting their working lives stuck in a childhood bedroom or a shitty houseshare. A world-shrinking insular life.

And people without the privilege of a home environment conducive to work face being locked out of career opportunities.

Excellent way to significantly increase inequality in society (as if it isn't already bad enough).

It's also a problem if you want decent functioning public services (nurseries, park maintenance, libraries, social care, mental health services, street lighting, public transport).

If you think they're in bad enough state already after years of underfunding, you ain't seen nothing yet.

The office based industries contribute around £460 billion to the national economy. Money used to fund our public services.

The alternative is huge tax increases. Or no public services including public transport (ticket revenue is a major part of how it is funded).

Sadly for many, this is going to be a case of not appreciating what you're got until it's too late.

It's also a problem if you want decent functioning public services (nurseries, park maintenance, libraries, social care, mental health services, street lighting, public transport).

But these things have been in decline for years which had nothing to do with remote working. We have already seen tax rises & I don't doubt we will see more regardless if we work in an office or not. We have an ageing population, decades of under investment & Brexit.

@Tealightsandd of course all those things are absolutely true. Nobody is able to refuse those points, because they're all valid. But people's desire to roll out of bed at 8.55 and be able to eat lunch in the garden outweighs all of that, apparently, so you're on a hiding to nothing in here.

I consider myself really lucky that I have a job that allows me to choose where I work. Many people don't have the space or the luxury of a choice. I work a hybrid work pattern and it suits me, especially with school drop-off/pickups etc. However, I do worry about the world of work that my children will be joining and fear that if they work in an office job that could in theory be done from home then they would be forced to do just that. I can't see how that would work for young people, especially those still living with parents or in flat shares. We certainly don't have space for the whole family to work from this home!

We are also completely reliant on public transport, so would really struggle to manage if that was cut back at all.

I don't tend to use coffee shops very often, but I do not know my local ones have done really well out of the pandemic compared to the city centre ones. I would hope that in the long-term these jobs would even out across both locations.

But these things have been in decline for years which had nothing to do with remote working.

Yes like I said they're already in a bad state. The solution to underfunding, surprisingly enough however, isn't significantly more underfunding.

I would hope that in the long-term these jobs would even out across both locations..

They won't. Because of the significant difference in population numbers. Far fewer people live and get coffee out in a small town than do in a city or larger town.

Huge numbers of jobs will go - and it's not just coffee shops. It's cobblers, dry cleaners, office cleaners, maintenance and postroom roles, newsagents, sandwich shops, tailors, taxi drivers (business meeting work is a significant proportion of their income).

It's a double whammy for the economy. Huge number of unemployed and massive loss of tax revenue (estimated by leading accountancy firms as around £460 billion per year).

Balance is key.

A hybrid model could work well if implemented with care. Something like 1/2 days per week remote working - with more flexibility for the disabled, carers, and (for the time being) the CEV. (Obviously depending on whether remote working is possible, which it isn't for every type of job.)

Yes like I said they're already in a bad state. The solution to underfunding, surprisingly enough however, isn't significantly more underfunding.

I just don't see the solution as ever growing passenger numbers.

Huge numbers of jobs will go - and it's not just coffee shops. It's cobblers, dry cleaners, office cleaners, maintenance and postroom roles, newsagents, sandwich shops, tailors, taxi drivers (business meeting work is a significant proportion of their income).

I just think it's tricky to lay it all at the door of remote workers & call them selfish as I said above most people still physically went to work in 2020 & most businesses are looking at hybrid models.

Things do change though regardless, look at pubs & clubs which have been declining for years & in many cases have been replaced by coffee shops. Tailors have also been in decline as formalwear in general has massively declined. When I used to work in Z1 I would go to independent delis for sandwiches, these died out where I was working in the early 00s to be replaced by Pret & the like.

@gibletjane

Yes like I said they're already in a bad state. The solution to underfunding, surprisingly enough however, isn't significantly more underfunding.

I just don't see the solution as ever growing passenger numbers.

Nor do I.

We need more of a balance - across the board.

Hybrid working eg. 1/2 days per week WFH (if possible for the job role and if preferred by the employee), with more flexibility for disabled, carers, and CEV.

Lots more social housing - spread across the UK. And, a better balance of work opportunities - again, spread across the UK.

Having a major centre - in the UK's case, London - is good, and every country has one. But there used to be more of a balance. Until 30-40 years ago, London was the centre, but a) It wasn't the be all or end all for job opportunities, and b) aside from a select few areas, housing was accessible for a balanced mix of incomes and normal locals - families and individuals, could live (if they wanted/needed) in their local community, close to family and support networks.

@Tealightsandd I agree with you, I think hybrid has much potential & advantages. I just don't agree that liking the hybrid model or remote working means you are lazy, vile & self centred.

I just think it's tricky to lay it all at the door of remote workers & call them selfish

There's an element of I'm Alright Jack with some, and others just don't realise what they'll lose until it's too late. But - if it happened, a major part of the blame would lie with government policy.

Some governments - including one of the world's leading economies - (the USA) are encouraging a return to the office. And they're leading by example, with public sector employees starting to go back.

(That said, given we're in a different position Covid wise - different vaccines, different stage of boosters and 12+ vaccinations, no mask mandates, it might be better to stagger until after winter).

Longer term the ideal would be a balance.

[quote gibletjane]@Tealightsandd I agree with you, I think hybrid has much potential & advantages. I just don't agree that liking the hybrid model or remote working means you are lazy, vile & self centred. [/quote]
I think a small minority are being selfish but then we'll always have a minority of selfish people whatever the issue. I think a lot of people just haven't truly thought about or fully understand the consequences.

Government on the other hand should be aware. It's their job.

This government? I think not

True!

We can but hope (for miracles).

In all my years of spending £5000+ a year to commute to and fro to work, I must admit that it never crossed my mind that I was somehow morally obligated to do this in the public interest. These ‘public benefit’ arguments around public transport are a load of nonsense, as anyone who has ever used the far cheaper trains elsewhere in Europe will know.