To have completely changed my mind about WFH?

[MauvePinkRose]

I know there is a WFH thread but I mean this more generally than the specific things about it that are driving me to drink!

Pre pandemic, I would have said that WFH was a positive thing that employers should absolutely allow, reducing traffic and therefore pollution, allowing more quality time at home.

Now, I’ve changed my mind.

I think it’s having a negative impact on public transport, which in turn will lead to redundancies and reduced public transport, which is bad news for those who can’t drive. It is also having a knock on effect on things like coffee kiosks and sandwich bars.

Then, I’m not convinced that WFH is as productive as people think. I don’t know what’s going on with DVLA for instance but I am still waiting for a driving license I sent off for three months ago and you can’t get through on the phones.

It’s turned family homes into workplaces and thus impacts everyone. I’ve had some really stressful and unpleasant times because of it.

And I do think it’s not very healthy. Dp rarely leaves the house without me, has gained weight and falls ill all the time as I just feel he isn’t gaining any natural immunity.

I’ll probably be flamed by all the WFHers now

Someone said the argument re public transport is "silly" because "services exist to meet demand" and if that demand is reduced then it is quite right that services be reduced. There are many people who can't work from home - nurses, carers, shop workers, cleaners, hotel workers, etc, etc, etc - and those people need reliable and regular public transport.

I said this. You made a large list of people who will still make use of public transport. This means revenue will still be there and the service will still be there.
To give you a more concrete illustration, part of my commute used to involve getting the central line at Bank. A train would come every minute but it was still common to have to let 3 or 4 trains pass before I could get on.
If you got rid of all the office workers due to WFH, you could probably reduce that to one every 5 minutes (for example) and still not have those overcrowding issues. Noone is left stranded by an extra 4 minute wait. The current frequency exists to (inadequately) meet current demand.

A hybrid is working for us. I'm a sahm with two small (5 and 3) children and DH works full time. Pre-covid he worked in an office 1.5 hours away from home. He'd leave at 7am and be home at 7pm, missing pretty much everything with the children Monday-Friday.

He worked from home full time from March 2020 until two weeks ago. He's had invaluable time with the children, been here for baths and bedtimes and has been able to do the school run when he wants to or is able to around work (his work hours are flexible and he wants to do this, it's not be being lazy and wanting him to do 'my' jobs). We're also fortunate enough to have a study, so he has an office at home so it's not like he's working from the living room etc.

However, him being at home full time hasn't been all great. We've been under each other's feet. The summer holidays were very tricky, having the children at home full time, hosting play dates etc, with him trying to work wasn't always great. So over the summer he started doing a few days a week in the office. He works Mon-Thurs now, just longer days. So we've decided he goes into the office 2 days and week and WFH 2 days. We'd found that having him home full time meant he was not seeing anyone but me for days at a time and some weeks he'd barely leave the house. We had nothing to talk about in the evenings, and as nice as it was having some company I found that he was getting over involved when I didn't need him to when I was trying to get on with stuff at home that I'd always done without him perfectly fine which drove me mad. I also really need some downtime alone, it's just how I am. Which always worked before, and now he works in the office the days our youngest is at preschool so I have two days a week to myself to get on without him trying to get involved!

It's a win win for us. We save on two days fuel, wear and tear on the car etc, he's able to be more involved in school where work allows, he stops work to be involved at bedtime each evening (which is good also because it stops him working crazy hours which he would easily do without the 'stop' time). He gets to do homework with the eldest before bed, which he loves. He also gets two days in the office to work without any interruption, the chance to catch up with colleagues in person, have his face seen (which lets face it, whatever the wrongs or rights of it is important).

I have no doubt that at some point in the future he'll be back in the office full time but at the moment and for the foreseeable future his employer is completely happy for people to do whatever works best for them as long as the work is done. So we're sticking with 50/50 for as long as possible. He works on an enclosed site in the middle of nowhere and always took a packed lunch anyway so he wasn't contributing to coffee shops etc regardless. I don't think places like Pret and Costa having a monopoly is a good thing anyway. Hopefully some of them will close and we'll have more local businesses back - our local high street is full of big chain cafes, hairdressers, charity shops and bookies but we've got not one clothes or shoe shop. There are so many empty units. It's a shame.

@gibletjane

You do realise that disabled people often need to go to things like hospital appointments? To visit family? And many would prefer to actually go out to work? Do you think 'disabled people' are some monolithic group?

Why is the above relevant to what I posted? Again why do you think Unison are campaigning for increased remote working rights?

Because you posted it as a response to what I said about public transport, as if campaigning for the right for disabled people to WFH means none of them need public transport!!!??

Why even mention it? It's completely irrelevant.

@gibletjane

Perhaps you also need to improve your reading comprehension, then.

From what I can read, you remote work but don't like it although you haven't said why you can't change your job or explained why it's ok for you but not others.

What I can't comprehend is why remote working equals vile, selfish & without a thought for others & why you would label yourself as such & your posts haven't enlightened me.

I've explained my position time and time again, and the reasons why I hold it. If your reading comprehension is too poor to understand, that's not my fault.

@gibletjane

I know another who is a student and was totting up a grand total of 200 steps a day while wfh in just his bedroom with other family members in all the other rooms. I checked and it really was 200 and not 2k steps.

I had days like this as a student where I barely moved from the bed!

I don't think it's the norm to not move from the bed/room though is it? Even during the height of lockdown my local park was rammed with people exercising pre, post work & around lunchtime.
I walk to work through a park & a few yrs ago I would be uncomfortable in certain parts as I wouldn't see a soul. Even at 6am it's busy now.

It's already been mentioned by me and others that a lot of people find it very difficult to go out and exercise for the sake of it. Many, many people depend on having 'somewhere to go' and a regular routine, for their mental health and wellbeing.

But fuck them, eh? It doesn't impact you.

It's already been mentioned by me and others that a lot of people find it very difficult to go out and exercise for the sake of it. Many, many people depend on having 'somewhere to go' and a regular routine, for their mental health and wellbeing.

There isn't anything mandated by going to the office that you couldn't add to your routine yourself (apart from physically interacting specifically with your co-workers).
Other people are selfish because you don't want to take responsibility for creating a daily routine for yourself?

@BreadPita

It's already been mentioned by me and others that a lot of people find it very difficult to go out and exercise for the sake of it. Many, many people depend on having 'somewhere to go' and a regular routine, for their mental health and wellbeing.

There isn't anything mandated by going to the office that you couldn't add to your routine yourself (apart from physically interacting specifically with your co-workers).
Other people are selfish because you don't want to take responsibility for creating a daily routine for yourself?

I'm not sure how many times I need to say I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT MYSELF!

How do you not understand that a lot of people really need the routine and social interaction of going to work? People already struggling with confidence, depression, etc. now have absolutely no reason to ever leave the house. Do you think that's a good thing?

I'm not sure how many times I need to say I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT MYSELF!

My bad. I guess I assumed you were talking about yourself because plenty of people (myself and lots of people in this thread included) have seen a positive mental health impact from working from home.
I assumed you put the experience of people who liked not having the choice to WFH over people who like having the choice because you were part of the former cohort.
It doesn't really make sense otherwise. Offices haven't disappeared, there's just more acceptance of home working. Some people in my office are back 5 times a week. I haven't been to the office for almost 2 years and I genuinely despised it. Why is that not a good thing?

@BreadPita

I'm not sure how many times I need to say I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT MYSELF!

My bad. I guess I assumed you were talking about yourself because plenty of people (myself and lots of people in this thread included) have seen a positive mental health impact from working from home.
I assumed you put the experience of people who liked not having the choice to WFH over people who like having the choice because you were part of the former cohort.
It doesn't really make sense otherwise. Offices haven't disappeared, there's just more acceptance of home working. Some people in my office are back 5 times a week. I haven't been to the office for almost 2 years and I genuinely despised it. Why is that not a good thing?

Yes, most people on this thread are utterly incapable of seeing anything outside of their own life and interests. That's the entire point.

Offices HAVE disappeared. A lot of my friends' offices have closed for good, or are down to about a quarter of the space they used to have. That takes away all the opportunities for properly getting to know all your colleagues, having any kind of 'buzz' in the office, young people getting to learn from all of their senior colleagues.

I'm sure it is a good thing for some people to WFH, but I don't think it's good for society in general. Young people were already spending far too much time home alone, staring at screens, etc. and now the little incentive they had to get out and about has gone. It will have impacts on public service provision, as noted by another poster. People from poorer backgrounds who don't have decent space to work in will be disproportionately affected compared to those with large houses and gardens. People from disadvantaged backgrounds will now not be mixing with people from other backgrounds at work, learning from them and being inspired to aspire to more.

Before the pandemic, lots of industries already had a genuine choice. I was always able to work at least one day a week from home if I wanted, even two. Why didn't the people who claim WFH is essential for their mental health get one of those jobs? Why do they now expect people who didn't sign up for a life of working from their bedroom to be OK with it?

Because you posted it as a response to what I said about public transport, as if campaigning for the right for disabled people to WFH means none of them need public transport!!!??

No I posted it as a response to why some people like increased remote working. How is that irrelevant?!

It's already been mentioned by me and others that a lot of people find it very difficult to go out and exercise for the sake of it. Many, many people depend on having 'somewhere to go' and a regular routine, for their mental health and wellbeing.

And as mentioned by others on this thread many don't need to have "somewhere to go" & remote working is better for their mental health & wellbeing.

But I guess fuck them, eh? It doesn't impact you

🤔

Other people are selfish because you don't want to take responsibility for creating a daily routine for yourself?

Exactly, it's not about public transport or other strawman it's about that posters own needs & wants & wanting others to change to what suits them whilst simultaneously calling others selfish! It's astounding!

Yes, most people on this thread are utterly incapable of seeing anything outside of their own life and interests. That's the entire point.

Do you really not see the irony in this statement?

The vast majority of companies are looking at a hybrid model as that is what suits their business. Most young people also favour the hybrid option.

I don’t know why people get so triggered by a bit of logic. If you don’t like commuting, either move or get a job closer to home. If we all did that then there would be more jobs on our doorsteps (as people from outside the area are not filling them) and house prices would reflect local wages. It’s what people used to do. The only alternative is to commute or wfh. The latter is not in my opinion the answer it’s being made out to be.
I am the perfect example of a wfh person and why you may want to consider your options I left a career 16 years ago and have tread water ever since. I have to fork out myself for training that I would have got for free had I stayed in the office, from just watching and learning from my peers. I used to be sociable before isolation made me socially anxious. I can’t mentally unload on anyone as I am completely alone and deal with the bad days alone and never get to laugh or share or run my ideas past anyone. I am paranoid that I am missing out on new techniques and better ways to do things because I am not connected to a broader team or workforce.

It has its uses yes but wfh is not the answer to our modern day problems. As other people say, a bit of both is probably best.

'buzz' in the office,

Good riddance.

@ididitsocanyou

I don’t know why people get so triggered by a bit of logic. If you don’t like commuting, either move or get a job closer to home. If we all did that then there would be more jobs on our doorsteps (as people from outside the area are not filling them) and house prices would reflect local wages. It’s what people used to do. The only alternative is to commute or wfh. The latter is not in my opinion the answer it’s being made out to be. I am the perfect example of a wfh person and why you may want to consider your options I left a career 16 years ago and have tread water ever since. I have to fork out myself for training that I would have got for free had I stayed in the office, from just watching and learning from my peers. I used to be sociable before isolation made me socially anxious. I can’t mentally unload on anyone as I am completely alone and deal with the bad days alone and never get to laugh or share or run my ideas past anyone. I am paranoid that I am missing out on new techniques and better ways to do things because I am not connected to a broader team or workforce.

It has its uses yes but wfh is not the answer to our modern day problems. As other people say, a bit of both is probably best.

Yep this was my point as well. I spent years working remotely and it took a huge toll on my mental health and wellbeing in the long term. I ended up changing career specifically so I'd be able to get a good job in an office. I think a lot of the people currently enjoying the novelty of WFH will feel very differently in a decade, when people are more isolated than ever, public transport is cut to the bone and their own children are struggling with loneliness and isolation.

But then it probably won't affect the I'm Alright Jacks on this thread as much as underprivileged groups, so maybe they'll just be enjoying the new, even more segregated society where they get to pay poor people to deliver everything to their door and can jump in the car for a nice walk in the countryside when they feel cooped up.

@gibletjane

Other people are selfish because you don't want to take responsibility for creating a daily routine for yourself?

Exactly, it's not about public transport or other strawman it's about that posters own needs & wants & wanting others to change to what suits them whilst simultaneously calling others selfish! It's astounding!

I have a daily routine for myself. I go to a gym class almost every morning and then a walk around the area with a coffee, and sometimes do an online class in my lunch break as well. My language classes are starting up again in person soon, several evenings a week.

But guess what? The young people I mentor are really struggling with the motivation to do any of this, and dreading the thought of this being the norm. Many of them had really been looking forward to working in an office in central London and networking and meeting people from different backgrounds. Now they're stuck in their parents' council flat doing everything on Zoom, feeling cut off and lonely.

Yet, the idea of thinking of anyone except your own self-centred self is so alien to you that you can't imagine anyone else doing it.

@Rozziie why do you think so many people are going to be fully remote when that isn't the model that is being used? The vast majority of companies are choosing a hybrid, flexible model.

Why do you think only remote workers use online shopping? I agree that during the pandemic some wanted to stay safe in their homes & have stuff brought to them by others but that's a separate point to remote working when not in a pandemic.

Why do you think only remote workers drive to the countryside for a walk?

But guess what? The young people I mentor are really struggling with the motivation to do any of this, and dreading the thought of this being the norm. Many of them had really been looking forward to working in an office in central London and networking and meeting people from different backgrounds. Now they're stuck in their parents' council flat doing everything on Zoom, feeling cut off and lonely.

Yet, the idea of thinking of anyone except your own self-centred self is so alien to you that you can't imagine anyone else doing it.

Why do you keep labouring the same point. I have already stated people should have a choice & I personally like the hybrid model. How is that self centred?

The vast majority of companies and jobs are not fully remote & even during the pandemic they weren't.

"The Office for National Statistics (ONS) said about a quarter of people (25.9%) had worked at home at some point in the week before they responded to officials conducting its annual population survey. It said that this compared with 12.4% of workers in 2019."

You need to stop extrapolating your unusual experiences to everyone else because that is self centred.

Yes, most people on this thread are utterly incapable of seeing anything outside of their own life and interests. That's the entire point.

One person really stands out...

Before the pandemic, lots of industries already had a genuine choice. I was always able to work at least one day a week from home if I wanted, even two. Why didn't the people who claim WFH is essential for their mental health get one of those jobs? Why do they now expect people who didn't sign up for a life of working from their bedroom to be OK with it?

Every place I've worked at has had a "flexible working" policy. In reality that meant that you would work evenings and weekends if necessary. In return you can work from home every once in a while, with a good excuse (despite perfectly adequate homeworking infrastructure).

I tested this with my current role by asking to work from home once a day each week, with a view to working this up. I made it 2 months before my line manager stopped me because it looked bad to the person he reports to (nothing to do with my output(. Then covid happened and I haven't looked back.

Many of my friends are in the same position of enjoying the increased freedom and reduced cost. Some (fewer) want to be back in the office and are able to do so.

Lucky for your friends, office jobs still outnumber WFH jobs so they should be perfectly capable of getting one of those jobs (like we should have done when work from home roles were far less abundant). Companies that have completely shut down their physical offices are in the minority, so they should have no trouble moving.

It is not self centred or vile to want to work 100% in a workplace, or 100% remotely or 50/50.

I think 99% of people arguing in favour of wfh just enjoy the creature comforts tbh

• e.g. roll out of bed at 08:50 and switch laptop on and chill out in your dressing gown.

Why didn't the people who claim WFH is essential for their mental health get one of those jobs? Why don't the people you know what hate fully remote working find a job that isn't since 100% remote working jobs are by far the minority?

[quote gibletjane]@Rozziie why do you think so many people are going to be fully remote when that isn't the model that is being used? The vast majority of companies are choosing a hybrid, flexible model.

Why do you think only remote workers use online shopping? I agree that during the pandemic some wanted to stay safe in their homes & have stuff brought to them by others but that's a separate point to remote working when not in a pandemic.

Why do you think only remote workers drive to the countryside for a walk? [/quote]
'Hybrid' often means that people can't be in the office five days a week if they want to be because of lack of space. That means those who don't want to WFH are forced to do it, whether they want to or not.

I never said only remote workers drive to the countryside for a walk. Your lack of reading comprehension is truly something to behold. I said that middle class, well off people won't suffer as much from WFH because unlike people living in inner cities with no cars, they can drive to the countryside or a nice walk.