To have completely changed my mind about WFH?

[MauvePinkRose]

I know there is a WFH thread but I mean this more generally than the specific things about it that are driving me to drink!

Pre pandemic, I would have said that WFH was a positive thing that employers should absolutely allow, reducing traffic and therefore pollution, allowing more quality time at home.

Now, I’ve changed my mind.

I think it’s having a negative impact on public transport, which in turn will lead to redundancies and reduced public transport, which is bad news for those who can’t drive. It is also having a knock on effect on things like coffee kiosks and sandwich bars.

Then, I’m not convinced that WFH is as productive as people think. I don’t know what’s going on with DVLA for instance but I am still waiting for a driving license I sent off for three months ago and you can’t get through on the phones.

It’s turned family homes into workplaces and thus impacts everyone. I’ve had some really stressful and unpleasant times because of it.

And I do think it’s not very healthy. Dp rarely leaves the house without me, has gained weight and falls ill all the time as I just feel he isn’t gaining any natural immunity.

I’ll probably be flamed by all the WFHers now

I can't understand how you are still waiting for your driving license 3 months later . In May I applied for my new license online and received it within a week. Did you do it by post? If so your application may have got lost and DVLA have not received it.
I would suggest that you have a look at your bank account to see if the payment has gone out and if it hasn't then apply again online . If the payment has gone out , try phoning again, if you don't get through then write to them telling them you didn't receive it.
There are other ways of communicating with DVLA , maybe send them an email. Good luck .

just don't think it's reasonable to expect others to resume otherwise-unnecessary commutes just for that reason.

So where does that end? Is it reasonable to expect other people to pay tax - to fund public services, including some they might not themselves use (eg. state education, mental health services, libraries, public parks, etc)? In a civilised modern society, we all generally have to do some things we'd rather not for the good of society. We're currently doing a biggie. People are being told they have to risk death or disability (from Covid) - for the good of society.

Wrt public transport specifically. Either the job is full-time WFH - in which case it can be outsourced cheaper abroad, or the employee still needs to occasionally go in and/or do site visits. In which case many will need a well functioning public transport system.

DH’s office have never had enough parking, overcrowded office etc. WFH is better for them and they should keep it IMO. They won’t though, they’ll insist everyone goes back then moan about the parking!

Full-time WFH will encourage and enable social anxiety. It will affect more people and more severely. It will creep up on many. As we've seen from the lockdowns, many people struggled to cope with returning to regular social interaction. Full-time WFH will make a very insular - and unequal - society.

Nope not the company I work for, they absolutely cannot outsource our jobs to different countries.

And the only reason we have the jobs we do is because we’re all qualified and have years of experience.

Our company regularly has big companies poaching staff, people will just negotiate their preferred remuneration and go. It’s not actually easy to replace experienced staff by training up new under qualified people.

Hiring new people at the level of those who leave would be an expensive and lengthy process.

I’ve seen how difficult it’s been for recent vacancies to be filled. So they’ve had to restructure with varying success.

Nobody is irreplaceable, but depending on the person and role it can be very inconvenient and expensive.

@Tealightsandd

And the area near my home is much nicer and safer for exercising - peaceful tree-lined residential streets instead of an urban center with frighteningly bad drivers and frequent crime.

Yep. WFH is limited to those privileged enough to live in comfortable home environments suitable for home working.

Many people have to live in urban centres, with noisy traffic and high levels of crime. Often in cramped and/or shared housing. So going forwards the inequality gap will widen further. Office based roles will be only for those with the luxury of a WFH appropriate home.

I used to be one of them, and I'm glad I'm not anymore. But if they're stuck exercising in an urban center either way, they're still no worse off for WFH. Plus at least now they're free to work up a sweat over their lunch breaks if they're so inclined. Even intra-city commutes on public transit can be lengthy, and (in the US, at least) often unsafe. Many who live in cities are still happy to not have to do them anymore.

A detached house on a tree-lined street is hardly a requirement for working from home. If someone lives alone, there's usually no real problem with doing it from a studio. If they share with others, yes, space may be an issue. If the company makes WFH optional, they're free to go to the office and work there if they'd rather. I do believe that if an employer makes WFH mandatory and therefore doesn't provide an office, the cost savings to the employer from not paying rent on the office should be passed on to the employee who now has to pay for additional living space. I think that's what will happen once the market adjusts.

buses to the 2 local hospitals are dedicated, free services.

They're not free. They're funded by tax income. Which the office based industries contribute billions towards.

I answered your question several posts back. I was working one or two days from home long before the pandemic. Like I said, that's a good balance (when possible, obviously depending on the job, as many can't be done from home at all).

Even intra-city commutes on public transit can be lengthy, and (in the US, at least) often unsafe. Many who live in cities are still happy to not have to do them anymore.

This is the UK though. And also, when this happens, many more people aren't as privileged as to be able to relocate from a city (and if everyone did, the suburbs and villages would be as full as cities).

If we're talking about America, it's leading the way with the return to the office. They've acknowledged the need - for the sake of the national economy, and wider society in general.

If someone lives alone, there's usually no real problem with doing it from a studio.

Lots of couples have to live in studios. And how depressing will that be. Stuck all day every day in one room - to sleep and to work.

If they share with others, yes, space may be an issue. If the company makes WFH optional, they're free to go to the office and work there if they'd rather

But, use it or lose it. If lots of people WFH, companies will close offices (and start outsourcing the work abroad for cheaper labour).

@Tealightsandd

just don't think it's reasonable to expect others to resume otherwise-unnecessary commutes just for that reason.

So where does that end? Is it reasonable to expect other people to pay tax - to fund public services, including some they might not themselves use (eg. state education, mental health services, libraries, public parks, etc)? In a civilised modern society, we all generally have to do some things we'd rather not for the good of society. We're currently doing a biggie. People are being told they have to risk death or disability (from Covid) - for the good of society.

Wrt public transport specifically. Either the job is full-time WFH - in which case it can be outsourced cheaper abroad, or the employee still needs to occasionally go in and/or do site visits. In which case many will need a well functioning public transport system.

It's reasonable to expect people to pay the taxes decided upon by their democratically-elected leaders. If those leaders decide that public transit funding should remain the same or increase, then everyone should pay as required. That's very different from requiring people to use it, which - while bad - is still better than requiring everyone to resume commuting because some of them will use it. Doing that isn't necessary to maintain funding or operational capacity, and really serves no purpose.

Not every job can be outsourced abroad, even if it's 100% remote. Mine couldn't, at least not in the way you're thinking. My employer has specifically forbidden people from moving abroad while working remotely due to licensure issues. But regardless, if a job can be done 100% remotely, ordering people to return to the office for no job-related reason doesn't change that fact. If it can be outsourced, then it can still be outsourced once they go back.

If site visits are truly occasional, they don't require public transit. At most, they require either renting a car or hiring a taxi a few days every month. Public transit wasn't free to begin with, so most people would still come out ahead. If it's more than that, the costs of commuting would need to be factored into the salary package, which is what typically happens anyway.

Really …?

@Hekatestorch

You mentioned your area as a way to refute my point. You basically said only old people take public transport in your area, as if that's in any way relevant to to the general situation on a national level. I wasn't the only one who thought that was a totally self absorbed comment that entirely missed the point, either.

If I was replying to any point you made it would have directed it at you.

And you think other people make it all about them?

I didn't say it was the same in all areas. I simply pointed out that public transport isn't impacted by wfh on some areas. Mine Included. Odd yoh find it so bothersome that not every area is like others

You arent the only one? And what? I am not the only one that thinks the remote worker calling people who want to wfh, selfish, is very very odd.

You just don't seem to be able to grasp, on any level, that you're not the centre of the universe. Yes, maybe the point about public transport doesn't apply to your area (and I'd still doubt that - perhaps people less privileged than you DO need to rely on it because they have no choice?) but so what? Who cares? I and other posters have said that it has been impacted where we are. I'm in London, which contains nearly 1/6 of the population of the entire UK. Public transport being scaled back is a massive deal here, even if it doesn't personally affectme.

I don't think it centres around me. I simply don't agree with you. The only person who expects people to arrange their lives so their own is benefitted is you. I am not the one trying to attach morality to people's working patterns, because it might make my eurostar tickets more expensive.

I have worked hybrid for years, I don't then judge other people for wanting to do the same. You have the benefit of remote working, you don't want others to have it because it may impact you

That's your only issue. If you really thought not using public transport, not buying daily coffees and lunch out and not working in an office was a selfish act YOU wouldn't be working remotely. You would be booking and paying for eurostar tickets to keep it in use. As that's what you suggested others did.

And no one said it was about 1 person. But where people don't use the public transport for commuting, them going back to work will not protect public transport. Because they didn't use it before and won't after. The same people are using it as were pre pandemic. So 'save our buses' isn't relevant to alot of people when it comes to the decision about wfh or not. It's relevant to many. But to many wfh or in the office will not impact it.

But oddly, you think anyone talking about an area with a different experience to yours, must be just selfish and only talking about themselves rather than talking about their area. But you can talk about your area and you are altruistic. But not actually doing what you think other must do.

Its just everyone else who needs to change their behaviour, to suit you. You can work remotely, but others can. That's the definition of selfishness.

@Hekatestorch I'm actually starting to think you're on a wind-up now.

You're going on as if I want to work remotely myself but I don't want anyone else to when my ENTIRE POINT is that I don't want to either!!!! My entire point is that I also don't think it's good in general, it's not good for young people, it's not good for disadvantaged people, it's not good for people with no space at home, etc. But now many industries have gone to WFH as default, so that anyone who does want to go back mostly office-based work, can't! So why on earth are you acting as if I want to work from home but don't want other people to do it?

It's like you grasp at literally anything except for the actual point. It's truly incredible.

Work from home 5 days a Week .. not healthy for anybody - you are talking as an employee but for the businesses or reds to be effective
Get the balance right though and it’s very constructive for both employee and employer .

@Tealightsandd

Even intra-city commutes on public transit can be lengthy, and (in the US, at least) often unsafe. Many who live in cities are still happy to not have to do them anymore.

This is the UK though. And also, when this happens, many more people aren't as privileged as to be able to relocate from a city (and if everyone did, the suburbs and villages would be as full as cities).

If we're talking about America, it's leading the way with the return to the office. They've acknowledged the need - for the sake of the national economy, and wider society in general.

If someone lives alone, there's usually no real problem with doing it from a studio.

Lots of couples have to live in studios. And how depressing will that be. Stuck all day every day in one room - to sleep and to work.

If they share with others, yes, space may be an issue. If the company makes WFH optional, they're free to go to the office and work there if they'd rather

But, use it or lose it. If lots of people WFH, companies will close offices (and start outsourcing the work abroad for cheaper labour).

I'm talking about America because I'm currently based there. Most areas have removed the legal restrictions on returning to the office, but many employers still allow people to work remotely if they want, with the expectation of making that permanent. Mine is one of them.

I lived in a studio for several years. I did plenty of work from home in that time (well before covid), and never found it depressing. Lockdowns are long over, and there's nothing stopping anyone from spending some or all of the workday (or their free time) somewhere other than their apartment.

My job isn't going to be outsourced. If someone believes (probably wrongly) that working from the office will make their job less likely to be outsourced, they can go right ahead and work from the office if they want. But I'm not going to just for that.

NYC doesn't represent the whole of America, I know, but it so often leads the way with trends - including work policy. They recognise the importance to the recovery of getting offices reopened.

www.nytimes.com/2021/09/01/nyregion/new-york-city-workers-office.html

I have zero interest in coffee shop culture, I'm the person who takes their own flask and packed lunch. I haven't had to commute on public transport since the early 1980s and if I'd been able to WFH I'd have been absolutely thrilled to not have to use my car (the cost of fuel, worry whether it would start in cold weather, often difficulty finding a parking space). But I work in a supermarket, WFH wasn't an option as we were on the front line throughout. I can't wait to retire next year and be out of the workplace for good.

One of my DDs loved WFH, she doesn't need people around her and works very productively and happily alone in the space she set up as her home office, and is disciplined about getting away from her screen, and getting outside for breaks. The other DD hates it, one day a week it's nice but generally she needs the buzz of interacting with people face to face. No rights or wrongs, but I would be wholly in favour of employers offereing it as a flexible option where possible.

I lived in a studio for several years. I did plenty of work from home in that time (well before covid), and never found it depressing.

There's always outliers. And of course, things that are a temporary novelty when we're young become very different when permanent long-term.

It's widely recognised by medical experts that it is not physically or mentally healthy to be confined to one room all day, everyday, night and day. People will become depressed and insular and will suffer increased social anxiety. And heaven help the couples stuck in a studio all day and night together!

I think it’s early days for many of you to be honest. I’m not dissing the fact that WFH is great for so many reasons, but those reasons are beneficial on a largely personal basis, not a professional basis.

Clearly, it is still a novelty for many. Two years is no time to judge the success of this experiment. You might want to wait until you’ve been at home for fifteen years or so and you’ve got older and your kids don’t even think you ‘really’ work, not in like a proper job like their friends’ parents do. You might need to see a few recessions through to see who’s most disposable when budgets are cut. Yes, your family life may be stronger. Some aspects of your health may improve. Your house may be prettier. But I will bet that your career would have suffered. You would have plateaued at some point. If you are still wfh and are earning what you are now or more in fifteen years time, I’d be surprised.

The reasons for this are clearly visible, when you evaluate the perceived benefits of wfh. If you are someone who is prioritising the leisure gains rather than the work gains then that speaks volumes about your perception of work.

The four day week in my mind is a terrible idea. Flexible hours across the board further condemn our work ethic to death.

No one wants to work anymore!

In the boom times when the economy is up and there is money to be made, people will squeeze every hour out of their day to work. People get high on it. Work becomes fashionable. Those who work, who are seen to work, have power. Now it’s the other way around. It’s fashionable to prioritise mental well-being over work because we’re in a massive slump. It’s hard to get a promotion in your slippers!

Nothing wrong in prioritising home life over work life, I’ve g doing it myself and don’t regret it, but you need to have your eyes wide open. It gets tedious. When I went freelance to wfh, I thought I’d have it all but I didn’t I really gave up my career. It just happens so slowly you hardly notice.

If you’re a youngish couple and you’re both wfh and don’t intend to go back in, I’d worry. You will end up poorer with fewer opportunities and a reduced network. You will be comfortable, but forgotten. I’m talking long term. For now, yes it’s a nice change. But we are better together. What I’d give to sit in an office with a team and delegate and make progress! Be part of something bigger than little old me. Talk to a colleague for moral support when things go wrong. It’s soooo important.

We need to be careful what we wish for I guess whichever side of the fence you sit on. Me, I know I’d get bored of the commute in a week .

I do think that wfh or more remotely is the future. If we really want to get real about being greener and helping the environment then surely commuting will need to become more limited. I know people talk about younger starters struggling with no seniors in the office but in 50 years time do we all expect we’ll still be 9-5? It can only be a good thing that people are allowed to prioritise life over work rather than work over life. Times change and how things get done change. Everyone young or old has to move with those changes esp now we have the tech to make it possible.

It can only be a good thing that people are allowed to prioritise life over work rather than work over life.

Not good if it's the privileged only. Those with the luxury of a home environment suitable for WFH. Fuck the rest, eh?

Times change and how things get done change.

Not always for the best.

We're on a marathon sprint towards turning into a Brazil or India. Friends from both those countries hate how it is there - the terrible inequality. Drastic extremes of rich and poor. A wealthy minority living very well indeed - and an increasingly desperate destitute majority, with no or limited access to essential public services.

Sad that so many welcome this.

Also it won't help the environment. Many jobs can't be done from home, and people WFH will still want to travel - for leisure, to go shopping, get to medical appointments, visit friends and family.

They won't be able to do that (in an environmentally friendly way) if public transport is run down (more than it already is) because of the double whammy of massive loss of ticketing revenue and the tightened public finances, due to the national economy losing billions of office based industry income.

So instead people will get in their cars to travel around.

No one wants to work anymore!

🤔

Now it’s the other way around. It’s fashionable to prioritise mental well-being over work because we’re in a massive slump. It’s hard to get a promotion in your slippers!

Uk productivity has declined since the 08 crisis.

But you have more housework because you're home all the time. I don't get that at all.

You don't create much mess spending a day on your laptop, and you can do bits and pieces in your lunch hour which helps. Also, I wouldn't personally leave the washing machine going while I was out of the house at work, for safety reasons, but WFH I can pop a wash on first thing in the morning with no fears.

I agree with you OP.

Someone said the argument re public transport is "silly" because "services exist to meet demand" and if that demand is reduced then it is quite right that services be reduced. There are many people who can't work from home - nurses, carers, shop workers, cleaners, hotel workers, etc, etc, etc - and those people need reliable and regular public transport. There are also people who may not be working but who want to get to the shops, the cinema, etc. etc. If they don't have access to good public transport, that, in turn, affects the viability of those businesses. For those who argue there is too much consumerism anyway, to some extent I agree, but that is the current economic model we have and, in my opinion, it can't be changed overnight without causing severe social and economic repercussions.

I think most people go along with the idea of some flexibility as to days spent working from home and going in to work. But I believe that working exclusively from home may have started to lose its appeal for both employee and employer. As has been mentioned, many people are finding it difficult to have their home and office in the same place for a number of reasons.

I found commuting to work tiring and stressful and I believe having perhaps one or two days working from home would have relieved some of that stress. However, working permanently from home would, I think, be very isolating and might, in the long run, affect people's confidence, skills and knowledge levels, ability to communicate easily and work as a team when necessary.

If you're ringing a call centre, the chances are it's not because they're WFH that affects the wait times
We are SO heavily monitored. For anyone that hasn't done it -
I log on at 8am exactly. Not 30 seconds past as that counts as late. Then I am available to take calls. Log off for my break (click break) at 10am and take 15 mins (to the second), same for lunch. The only time I am not available is if I click personal which is if I need the toilet or something and more than 5 mins personal would be "are you ok" type thing
After a call it automatically puts me back available with a 5 second break between calls
Everything is visible, my screen is recorded, my phone line is recorded and my manager can see exactly what status I am in (personal etc)

I take about 200 calls a day and we are getting battered, it's just busy 🤷🏽‍♀️ and there is actually only me WFH but people complain it's taking 5-10 mins to get through. It's not because of WFH as every other staff member is in!