To have completely changed my mind about WFH?

[MauvePinkRose]

I know there is a WFH thread but I mean this more generally than the specific things about it that are driving me to drink!

Pre pandemic, I would have said that WFH was a positive thing that employers should absolutely allow, reducing traffic and therefore pollution, allowing more quality time at home.

Now, I’ve changed my mind.

I think it’s having a negative impact on public transport, which in turn will lead to redundancies and reduced public transport, which is bad news for those who can’t drive. It is also having a knock on effect on things like coffee kiosks and sandwich bars.

Then, I’m not convinced that WFH is as productive as people think. I don’t know what’s going on with DVLA for instance but I am still waiting for a driving license I sent off for three months ago and you can’t get through on the phones.

It’s turned family homes into workplaces and thus impacts everyone. I’ve had some really stressful and unpleasant times because of it.

And I do think it’s not very healthy. Dp rarely leaves the house without me, has gained weight and falls ill all the time as I just feel he isn’t gaining any natural immunity.

I’ll probably be flamed by all the WFHers now

I Dont spend hour and in the morning and in the evening commuting so more time at home to tidy up etc.When I make lunch I can put washing machine on etc..plus simply don't wear as many clothes.
In the office there are always meetings galore,people talking to you and you spend your lunch break often at desk .I don't want to walk in the city.I have greenery right next to my house and can enjoy fresh air not car fumes and noise

guess what I'm missing is, why is this a huge problem? Many people never used public transit to begin with

Well it's better for the environment. We need to maintain - in fact, improve - our public transport system.

Also, a civilised society ensures there is provision (including ability to get out and about - social interaction, shopping, hospital appointments, etc) for those too disabled to drive or too poor to afford to run a car.

Not to mention good public transport offers independence to teenagers and young adults.

Use it or lose it.

I'd like to be in office 3 days a week

That's a good balance. I was doing that years before the pandemic. One or two days a week at home is a good option for those who want it (with extra flexibility for the disabled and carers). Full-time WFH for the majority, however, is detrimental to individuals, society, and the national economy (taxes will have to go up high to fund public services, without the office based industry contribution).

I find it interesting that all the perceived benefits of wfh are not actually work related. I.e “I love wfh because I can tidy the house.”

That’s not wfh! That’s tidying the house!

All the negatives are work related: lack of collaboration, productivity, accountability etc.

“I love wfh I get to walk in the park.”

Well you’re not bloody working then are you??

[quote Hekatestorch]@Rozziie yes a toddler. That has more sense than you.

I mentioned my area, to make a point that wfh hasn't impacted public transport in every area. So the 'you have to go back to work to support public transport' is just irrelevant. Making people return to an office here won't impact the public transport.

Again, YOU need to stop working remotely and start travelling into an office everyday. Because anything else is just making it about YOU. You aren't think over everyone else.

Practice what you preach.

Again, the hypocrisy is amazing. You can can talk about how transport will be impacted in YOUR area. But anyone talking about and alternative view is making it 'all about MMMEEEE!'

Just bizarre.[/quote]
You mentioned your area as a way to refute my point. You basically said only old people take public transport in your area, as if that's in any way relevant to to the general situation on a national level. I wasn't the only one who thought that was a totally self absorbed comment that entirely missed the point, either.

You just don't seem to be able to grasp, on any level, that you're not the centre of the universe. Yes, maybe the point about public transport doesn't apply to your area (and I'd still doubt that - perhaps people less privileged than you DO need to rely on it because they have no choice?) but so what? Who cares? I and other posters have said that it has been impacted where we are. I'm in London, which contains nearly 1/6 of the population of the entire UK. Public transport being scaled back is a massive deal here, even if it doesn't personally affect me.

It's not a matter of one individual needing to go to the office every day to keep public transport in their area running - it's a general point that if people don't use things, they won't be there. And a lot of people will be much, much worse off for it. But you don't seem to be able to grasp anything that isn't all about you.

ididitsocanyou

I think a massive benefit of WFH is no commute and he resultant time created.
Many people have a commute of an hour each way or maybe even more.
Even with a modest 45 minute commute WFH gives you an extra 7.5 hours in a week- almost an extra working day to use as your own time.

@Gwenhwyfar

"Speak for yourself. It's been great for mine."

Yes, people's circumstances will vary.
How has it been good for your health? I can see some people who used to drive to work using that time to exercise, but in general it's better to be active as a normal part of your day so walking, taking public transport to work or parking a bit further away are more sustainable ways of making sure you're active. Also, most people are much more active at the office, with the walk to the kitchen, printer or toilet being much more than at home. I can't believe many people live in a house where the kitchen and toilet are further away from them than in the office.

As for mental health, yes I suppose a minority of people are happy to interact with their family only or see friends every day, but most people will have more interactions if they go out to work. Talking to people through a screen only is really not the same.

The driving thing is true for me, plus the fact that no one can hear or smell me makes me more willing to exercise during lunch and other incidental breaks that sometimes come up during the day. Amusingly, I do live in a house where the kitchen is farther from my home office than it was in my employer's office, and down a flight of stairs to boot!

As far as mental health goes, I feel like I get more than enough interaction with most of my colleagues virtually. We can chitchat a bit during work calls, and that's plenty for me. I'm fortunate that my husband and I both enjoy each other's company, plus the flexibility makes it easier to keep in touch with other relatives and friends of my choosing. So I think that need is getting met pretty well. I'm much happier overall.

if a job can be done at home in the UK it can be done at home in another, cheaper location.

Not so. We have a staff member who is situated overseas. He can do some parts of the job from there, but there are times where we need to do site visits. He can’t do those. I can work from home, do those site visits, without going anywhere near my office.

@speakout yeah I know. I was only jesting. Even so, nobody ever says “the best thing about wfh is that I can spend the hour I was commuting working” do they? Or “the best thing about wfh is that I don’t have to wait in the printer queue”. It’s never work related us my point, it’s always leisure related. That in itself is why WFH is not a good idea long term and should be a huge warning sign to us all.

Well it's better for the environment. We need to maintain - in fact, improve - our public transport system.

Running near-empty trains and buses isn't better for the environment. Public transit is better for the environment than everyone driving themselves everywhere. It's not better for the environment than everyone just staying home, which is the alternative here.

Also, a civilised society ensures there is provision (including ability to get out and about - social interaction, shopping, hospital appointments, etc) for those too disabled to drive or too poor to afford to run a car.

And there should be. If scaled-back public transit is inadequate for those things, the funds freed up from scaling it back can be used to meet those needs in a more targeted way.

Not to mention good public transport offers independence to teenagers and young adults.

Plenty of teens and young adults grew up just fine in areas with no public transit whatsoever. I'm one of them. I rode my bike a lot, and it was good for me. I think telling adults to rearrange their lives so that teenagers can feel more independent is a bit of a stretch.

I have always does flexible working and could WFH if needed to pre pandemic . I don’t enjoy it at all now. I actually just really miss people and the separation from home life.

I find it less productive too in many ways and find our business is suffering from the lack of communication. People are not focused entirely on their own tasks and collaborative working is diminishing.

I also miss my colleagues and you just can’t communicate in the same way online. The nuances are missed as is the general day to day stuff you pick up from being around your colleagues.

I’m glad not everyone loves working from home. I was beginning to think I am the only one who isn’t a fan!

Now entirely focused I meant!

I mentioned my area, to make a point that wfh hasn't impacted public transport in every area.

Wonderful. For the insular. So people will be mostly confined to the area they currently live in? A pity for anyone who needs or wants to travel further afield. For work, or to a specialist hospital, to see friends, visit family who live elsewhere.

And public transport is only doing ok in any area right now because of the government bailouts. Which costs a lot of money to do. Something unsustainable if a permanent loss of the billions from office based industries.

I love WFH as I can get my head down and get the work done, then sort out the piles and piles of crap in my inbox which I normally need to leave for when I get a chance.

I love that people cannot stop at my desk to have a half hour discussion about ‘stuff’ which has nothing to do with work.

I love that I can get up in the morning log on and sort through my (work) emails whilst the kettle boils, and then dive right into work as soon as I’ve got breakfast out of the way.

I’m more productive at work.

Altho people do ring to chat but they usually tag that on to the end of work calls.

I’m pretty sure most people in favour of WFH have a balance of work and personal related reasons for preferring WFH.

Pre pandemic we spent half our lives commuting on shit over crowded trains and tubes (baking slowly to death during summer on the central line is one thing I will never miss nor wish to return to). Barely saw our kids, spent weekends frantically preparing for the week.

I prefer the calmer pace of WFH. No worries about the trains, getting to every meeting calm and on time not having to clock watch at the end of the day because I can’t miss my train otherwise the next will be ridiculously late, not turning up at the train station to find a massive crowd gathered because the station is shut because omg it rained, in England in October fancy that! 🙄

Yeah and at lunch time I can throw dinner together, so when I finish for the day dinner is ready. I can use my own nice clean bathroom, I don’t have to worry when I am having the period from hell I have everything to hand at home.

People who want to go in to work can continue to do so, but why on earth is there anger at those of us who are happier WFH?
During the pandemic when the lockdowns eased our offices allowed anyone who wanted, to go in. Those are pretty much the people who are still going regularly the rest of us are going in hybrid working under duress. And it won’t continue in our office I know that for a fact as people are just point blank refusing to go in. There are loads of jobs available in our sector now with WFH options, so our employer will face a big staff turnover if they force the issue. Altho I doubt they will.

That in itself is why WFH is not a good idea long term and should be a huge warning sign to us all.

I don't understand that at all.
What is wrong with benefits being leisure related?
I love working from home because I have time to do other stuff- I have important things in my life apart from work.
I have worked from home for a long time and not sure I would ever consider a workplace job again.

Yes, people's circumstances will vary.
How has it been good for your health?

I haven't had cold or flu in over 2 years. It was rare to go 6 months without one when I was in the office. Fitness-wise, I'm probably not the norm but it's been great for me. I go to the gym as normal (slightly cheaper because I used to pay extra to use a branch closer to my office on work days). Sitting all day is generally pretty horrible for mobility, so I used to go to the toilet cubicle and (try to) stretch. Not easy in a confined space and I can imagine some people had questions about the frequency of my toilet visits.
Now I just stretch in my living room every once in a while with plenty of space and free from ridicule.
I can cook nutritionally decent, tasty and relatively cheap lunches at lunchtime, rather than visit Pret and it's ilk or picking up a Tesco meal deal.
Bar the effects of the lockdown closure of gyms, I'm probably healthier than I have been in recent memory.

You mentioned your area as a way to refute my point. You basically said only old people take public transport in your area, as if that's in any way relevant to to the general situation on a national level. I wasn't the only one who thought that was a totally self absorbed comment that entirely missed the point, either.

If I was replying to any point you made it would have directed it at you.

And you think other people make it all about them?

I didn't say it was the same in all areas. I simply pointed out that public transport isn't impacted by wfh on some areas. Mine Included. Odd yoh find it so bothersome that not every area is like others

You arent the only one? And what? I am not the only one that thinks the remote worker calling people who want to wfh, selfish, is very very odd.

You just don't seem to be able to grasp, on any level, that you're not the centre of the universe. Yes, maybe the point about public transport doesn't apply to your area (and I'd still doubt that - perhaps people less privileged than you DO need to rely on it because they have no choice?) but so what? Who cares? I and other posters have said that it has been impacted where we are. I'm in London, which contains nearly 1/6 of the population of the entire UK. Public transport being scaled back is a massive deal here, even if it doesn't personally affectme.

I don't think it centres around me. I simply don't agree with you. The only person who expects people to arrange their lives so their own is benefitted is you. I am not the one trying to attach morality to people's working patterns, because it might make my eurostar tickets more expensive.

I have worked hybrid for years, I don't then judge other people for wanting to do the same. You have the benefit of remote working, you don't want others to have it because it may impact you

That's your only issue. If you really thought not using public transport, not buying daily coffees and lunch out and not working in an office was a selfish act YOU wouldn't be working remotely. You would be booking and paying for eurostar tickets to keep it in use. As that's what you suggested others did.

And no one said it was about 1 person. But where people don't use the public transport for commuting, them going back to work will not protect public transport. Because they didn't use it before and won't after. The same people are using it as were pre pandemic. So 'save our buses' isn't relevant to alot of people when it comes to the decision about wfh or not. It's relevant to many. But to many wfh or in the office will not impact it.

But oddly, you think anyone talking about an area with a different experience to yours, must be just selfish and only talking about themselves rather than talking about their area. But you can talk about your area and you are altruistic. But not actually doing what you think other must do.

Its just everyone else who needs to change their behaviour, to suit you. You can work remotely, but others can. That's the definition of selfishness.

@ididitsocanyou

I find it interesting that all the perceived benefits of wfh are not actually work related. I.e “I love wfh because I can tidy the house.”

That’s not wfh! That’s tidying the house!

All the negatives are work related: lack of collaboration, productivity, accountability etc.

“I love wfh I get to walk in the park.”

Well you’re not bloody working then are you??

Spending a lot of time commuting ,spending money commuting ,spending less time with family etc...those are negatives not work related. My work means I deal with people in different countries and actually have very little to do with my colleagues besides gossiping.I used to sit at my desk and still have video calls etc.Not everybody is the same ,but people should accept that there are many who enjoy wfh and are not mentally affected by it.

Plenty of teens and young adults grew up just fine in areas with no public transit whatsoever.

It's one of the first things brought up (time and time again) whenever there's a thread on here from someone looking to move more rural from a city.

People fall all over themselves to talk of how shit and limiting it was to grow up without good public transport - how it hindered their ability to be independent the heavy burden on parents to taxi their children everywhere, how difficult it is to get a job (loads can't be done from home).

We need more and improved public transport, not less.

can cook nutritionally decent, tasty and relatively cheap lunches at lunchtime

I started doing that years ago - taking it to work with me, when I want a packed lunch (sometime it's nice to enjoy a cafe/sandwich shop meal or a lunch out with colleagues).

@Tealightsandd

I mentioned my area, to make a point that wfh hasn't impacted public transport in every area.

Wonderful. For the insular. So people will be mostly confined to the area they currently live in? A pity for anyone who needs or wants to travel further afield. For work, or to a specialist hospital, to see friends, visit family who live elsewhere.

And public transport is only doing ok in any area right now because of the government bailouts. Which costs a lot of money to do. Something unsustainable if a permanent loss of the billions from office based industries.

And how is that impacted by people here returning to the office.

People don't travel long distances here on public transport, because its shit.

Werher they are at home or in an office they aren't using it. So sending the. Back yo office isn't a benefit to the public transport in their area. Again, buses to the 2 local hospitals are dedicated, free services. They don't also transport people to their office. Again, these buses are out on because people can't get to the hospital reliably, on public transport. So again, not a service impacted by wfh.

Seriously, are you suggesting people in Cumbria (as an example) must use public transport, even if its crap so that people in Newcastly can keep a service that's not being used on?

Again, because you refuse to answer, are you also a remote worker? Or an office worker? Or are you not working? I assume you use public transport and pay for it everyday? Just incase someone 200 miles away doesn't want to pose the number 53?

Housework always done? But you have more housework because you're home all the time. I don't get that at all.

I suppose it's true that being in my spare bedroom for 50% more time makes it 50% dirtier. But to my mind, that doesn't translate into a need to vacuum it 50% more often.

Yes, you can put the washing machine on while you work, but you also have to make every meal at home and tidy up after yourself.

I can get meals delivered to my home just as I often did at the office. But I also often brought packed lunches to the office, so I (or my husband) still had to make them and wash the tupperware. I don't think there's much difference here, honestly. But I'm perfectly happy to eat simple foods like sandwiches and cereal. I suppose someone whose preferred meals involved more extensive prep might feel differently if they could no longer order them from restaurants.

Why can't you go on a walk on your lunch break from the office?
I could, I suppose, but not a run - I'd be sweaty and disgusting when I came back. Biking isn't practical, either, unless I bought a bike to keep at the office and wheeled it through the hall and into the elevator every day. Not sure that would fly with management, plus if I tried to do it in an urban center, I'd surely get hit by a car eventually. And the area near my home is much nicer and safer for exercising - peaceful tree-lined residential streets instead of an urban center with frighteningly bad drivers and frequent crime.

There are loads of jobs available in our sector now with WFH options, so our employer will face a big staff turnover if they force the issue.

There's also high unemployment levels - and a growing amount of underemployment (people having to take part-time and/or lower level jobs due to limited opportunities). It wouldn't be too difficult to train up/retrain/recruit from the large pool of talent out there. And like pp have pointed out, if it's full-time WFH, then yes, not all but many jobs can be outsourced cheaper abroad.

@Tealightsandd

Plenty of teens and young adults grew up just fine in areas with no public transit whatsoever.

It's one of the first things brought up (time and time again) whenever there's a thread on here from someone looking to move more rural from a city.

People fall all over themselves to talk of how shit and limiting it was to grow up without good public transport - how it hindered their ability to be independent the heavy burden on parents to taxi their children everywhere, how difficult it is to get a job (loads can't be done from home).

We need more and improved public transport, not less.

That's something that can be discussed and democratically decided when public transit funding is reexamined. If enough people agree with you, that will be prioritised. I'm not opposed to preserving or expanding public transit so long as sufficient demand is there. I just don't think it's reasonable to expect others to resume otherwise-unnecessary commutes just for that reason.

And the area near my home is much nicer and safer for exercising - peaceful tree-lined residential streets instead of an urban center with frighteningly bad drivers and frequent crime.

Yep. WFH is limited to those privileged enough to live in comfortable home environments suitable for home working.

Many people have to live in urban centres, with noisy traffic and high levels of crime. Often in cramped and/or shared housing. So going forwards the inequality gap will widen further. Office based roles will be only for those with the luxury of a WFH appropriate home.

@Tealightsandd

can cook nutritionally decent, tasty and relatively cheap lunches at lunchtime

I started doing that years ago - taking it to work with me, when I want a packed lunch (sometime it's nice to enjoy a cafe/sandwich shop meal or a lunch out with colleagues).

That's great, but it didn't make sense for me to either spend time cooking an extra meal after dinner or waking up early to cook in the morning. Now, cone lunchtime, I have access to my kitchen and fridge, so these concerns do not exist. Pret's ham and cheese baguettes aren't special. These chains exists because of office workers who are trying to buy back the time they spend commuting and at the office.