To have completely changed my mind about WFH?

[MauvePinkRose]

I know there is a WFH thread but I mean this more generally than the specific things about it that are driving me to drink!

Pre pandemic, I would have said that WFH was a positive thing that employers should absolutely allow, reducing traffic and therefore pollution, allowing more quality time at home.

Now, I’ve changed my mind.

I think it’s having a negative impact on public transport, which in turn will lead to redundancies and reduced public transport, which is bad news for those who can’t drive. It is also having a knock on effect on things like coffee kiosks and sandwich bars.

Then, I’m not convinced that WFH is as productive as people think. I don’t know what’s going on with DVLA for instance but I am still waiting for a driving license I sent off for three months ago and you can’t get through on the phones.

It’s turned family homes into workplaces and thus impacts everyone. I’ve had some really stressful and unpleasant times because of it.

And I do think it’s not very healthy. Dp rarely leaves the house without me, has gained weight and falls ill all the time as I just feel he isn’t gaining any natural immunity.

I’ll probably be flamed by all the WFHers now

@Bakingtraypan

Anyone tried to run a hybrid meeting yet - with some people wfh and some in a conference room together. We haven’t managed to make that combination a success yet - very hard to connect remotely on a screen to a group of people talking in a room , the dynamics are awful.

We've been doing that for years with national meetings - multiple groups in meeting rooms and individuals joining from their desks. We use old fashioned videoconferencing technology that was around before the pandemic and adoption of Zoom and the like.

The meeting rooms have a big TV with camera and there's a mike on the table. Everyone in the room faces the TV, not each other.

In our local town the trade has actually gone up. I now have to queue at our local grocers and actually see people my age instead of only elderly people.

I go for a walk for a coffee almost daily at our local cafe and meet up more for lunch now. So I'm my case local trade has been better as a result and the area is just nicer to be in because there's more younger middle class people roaming around.
My dc gets to go to more activities because I'm around more and she only stayed in after school anyway so that's still running without her. Also dh actually sees dd in the week now and it's made a massive difference to their relationship, before wfh he never took her school. Literally never due to his long commute. Now it's a few times a week.

The one thing that we haven't used for over a year though and used to use every day is the train. But then we also don't drive to the station anymore so there's that pollution gone from the local area. I don't miss London whatsoever and tbh me and dh felt exploited in our working hours and lives. Both of us feel much better without the long hours and extra stresses involved in going in. Dh work is looking into wfh 100% and we would be grateful if this happened. London's will undoubtedly go on, our village however would miss people like us.

Obviously I understand some people don't like wfh and am not talking on their behalf but for us it's been an absolute blessing in disguise.

@Bakingtraypan

Anyone tried to run a hybrid meeting yet - with some people wfh and some in a conference room together. We haven’t managed to make that combination a success yet - very hard to connect remotely on a screen to a group of people talking in a room , the dynamics are awful.

A former employer did this all the time pre-covid. If you're trying to use it to socialize, the dynamics are terrible. But if you stick to functional meetings where everyone knows what's on the agenda and what they're expected to contribute, and only discusses relevant work matters, it seems to works fine.

As a working parent wfh has been an utter godsend. I rarely bought a coffee or even left my desk when I worked in town. I ran round like a mad thing to get me to work & Ds to school. Now we can chat, spend more time together and oh, blast, still not practised the blooming spellings for Friday spelling test - but we'll do it this morning before school!

My company sold our office block ( 1000 employees) and now we are wfh
So bored uninspired and lonely
There will eventually be a once a fortnight/month day in another office we had (that staffed a completely separate part of the company) for team building and face to face coaching etc
But only with our own team
So all this inter office relationships, work babies, friendships made by sitting back to back with someone from a different department (I’m 52 and met one of my best friends at 18 when we started at a job same day back to back) - they’re all gone
My other friends son has just got a first class computing degree but also had a breakdown after one week at his first job and became suicidal at the thought of his life, stuck alone in his room for the next 40 odd years. Now working on a golf course.
Yes it’s great for those with commutes. Yes I can put the washing on but I work in sales where I have to work eg 9:45 to 5:15 one day and 8:30 to 1:30 another. Not a minute of flexibility and I have to logged in and actively active 80% of my shift including showing periods of inactivity of no more than 3 minutes or I’m pulled up on it
We’ve had 6 out and 6 in to our department over the pandemic as people can’t hack the absolute boredom and loneliness- our department turnover was static before
The local town is failing even more, I’m fat, miserable and soooo bored

@PurpleOkapi A former employer did this all the time pre-covid. If you're trying to use it to socialize, the dynamics are terrible. But if you stick to functional meetings where everyone knows what's on the agenda and what they're expected to contribute, and only discusses relevant work matters, it seems to works fine.
We are using it with clients at client sites we are attending, some clients dial in, we have had our team dial in too. We have used it with our in house teams too - the technology fails, the dynamics are awful - regardless of agenda, we are trying to solve complex problems and so relationships and communications matter, interactions matter, making them more difficult is not better - it is sub-optimal in our experience.

@MauvePinkRose

Did you get an email from the DVLA at the time you applied?
We've moved twice this year and the first time DH and I both applied for new licence, his arrived within a couple of days and mine never did, I realised I didn't get an email after applying so just applied again and got an email straight away, the licence a few days later. I must have messed up the first application somehow or maybe a glitch meant it didn't go through but I honestly thought I'd applied perfectly.
Second (and third time after the second move) I got an instant email confirmation and the licenses arrived within a week.

@Hekatestorch

No, dear, I'm making the point that a lot of people are going to be very upset that they can no longer go on holiday abroad or see loved ones abroad once the dust settles. The routes won't be there. The affordable. flights won't be there.

Well, dear, you do think that telling people to book flights, to keep your flights cheaper 'isn't a bad idea'.

So yes, you would like the rest if use to pay for flights to keep yourself cheaper. Beyond entitled, to think telling people they must book flights so yours are cheaper, is a good idea.

Why do so many people have so much trouble comprehending that not everyone is as selfish as them? I'm not talking about 'my' flights. I'm talking about the industry in general. A lot of people just aren't seeing that if they don't make use of things, they won't be there anymore. Applies to airlines, restaurants, gyms, pretty much everything. I can't wait for the whingeing and moaning in a year or two when people get bored of being at home all the time and realise all the things they took for granted are gone because they didn't support them.

It really is shocking how many people seem utterly incapable of thinking of anyone except themselves. Complete self absorption all over this thread. "WFH suits me and my family so screw everyone else."

Demand for city centre sandwiches and coffee isn't exactly the backbone for economic growth. That would be shifted into other WFH pattern demands and maybe even increase economic growth overall: cloud and tech solutions, local coffee and sandwiches, home comforts, fixtures, food deliveries and online retail etc.

Join the local gym

Cheap flights are terrible for environment. They go hand in hand with high volume as a business model.

I'm sure they will return but I'm not a supporter.

@WolfKnuckle

Cheap flights are terrible for environment. They go hand in hand with high volume as a business model.

I'm sure they will return but I'm not a supporter.

I'm not so sure they will. One of the routes I used to visit family has already been permanently discontinued.

The thing is, people will still need to fly for whatever reason. And if they can't go directly, they'll end up taking two or three different flights to get where they need to go. How is that better?

@Rozziie

That is literally the economy functioning as intended. If people do not want to make use of resources in the way that they are currently used, those resources SHOULD be directed to another purpose that people, as a whole, find useful.
In reality, the airline industry is not going to disappear. People are flying less at the moment for a very obvious reason. Working from home may even be good for the airline industry as some of the money previously spent at Pret and it's ilk or commuting will be available for leisure activities such as holidays. Commuting and lunch was costing me close to an extra £10 per day.

@BreadPita it looks like short term thinking to me. People not really wanting to go on holiday right now because it's a hassle, but assuming their cheap Ryanair flights will still be there waiting for them in 2022 or 2023. People cancelling their gym membership but assuming their tailored classes will still be there in a year or two.

A lot of people can't seem to see beyond their immediate situation and think about the longer term impacts of their decisions. People thought I was silly for paying for online gym classes and bakery deliveries during lockdowns, but if we don't support businesses, they WILL disappear. Quite a few nice places in my area have already shut up shop, and people are moaning and unhappy, but where were they during lockdowns when those places were struggling?

Likewise the people boasting about how virtuous they are for not flying - they will get a nasty shock when they want to visit a relative or go on holiday to relax next year and that £40 flight is now £500 because there's no competition on the route. It would be one thing if all these people were genuinely doing it out of concern for the environment but I don't think most of them are.

@Rozziie
If businesses cannot weather the storm, yes, they will fail. The failure will be a response to the economic reality that people do not currently want what they are providing, so those services should not be provided.

The money goes elsewhere in the economy and when demand returns other companies offering those old services/products will spring back up. They might even do a better job than the companies they replaced.

Again, this is literally how our economy is supposed to work.

In practice, I'm a member of two gyms. One a large commercial chain and the other an independent provider of training for a niche set of sports. Both closed down during lockdown and both are back to running (mostly) as normal.

The demand for the services did not disappear so the companies are still extant, despite the turbulence (like most businesses).

Not being funny but our insanely consumerist way of life (including international air travel at the drop of a hat) needs to change drastically anyway. I really don't think most people are aware of how immediate the threat of climate change is. I don't mean it gets a bit warmer or we have more storms. I mean extreme, fatal, life and humanity changing weather events by 2040 (and that's being optimistic).

I won't be going back to my pre covid way of life. Others I daresay will. Haven't got any control over that, only what I do. It does terrify me though.

Lots of interesting replies.

Hybrid must surely be the way to go?

Full WFH isn't great for young people. My DS spent 13 months wfh as his year in industry from uni. He never met a single fellow worker in person in that time; he learned nothing of 'office culture', got no informal mentoring, bounced not a single idea around among work mates around 'the water cooler'. He'd climb out of bed, head to the desk in his room, do a day's work, then repeat. It was an isolating experience, and, how do quieter, shyer kids ever meet new friends or partners?

DH wfh in the spare room. He's quite liked wfh, though his office is an easy 10 min commute away, but I think he's become quite insular. Even he's conceded the day or so a week he's had to go I have been good, catching up with some of his team.

I'm front-line HCP so I've headed into work 4 days a week throughout but, personally, I dislike never being alone at home. There's always someone here (a thing DH likes).

Fortunately DS2 went back to uni last week and DS1 is going later today. They need to get on with their lives, but I suspect both will be studying from home for the most part.

And I do agree that this will widen 'the divide' between younger and older people in that when we were young, we were taught, guided, mentored, learned from the example of the older people in 'the office'. Now we are 'the older people', we, by choosing to stay home, aren't reciprocating.

Why do so many people have so much trouble comprehending that not everyone is as selfish as them? I'm not talking about 'my' flights. I'm talking about the industry in general. A lot of people just aren't seeing that if they don't make use of things, they won't be there anymore. Applies to airlines, restaurants, gyms, pretty much everything. I can't wait for the whingeing and moaning in a year or two when people get bored of being at home all the time and realise all the things they took for granted are gone because they didn't support them.

It really is shocking how many people seem utterly incapable of thinking of anyone except themselves. Complete self absorption all over this thread. "WFH suits me and my family so screw everyone else."

This is such a hypocritical attitude.

I didn't fly much pre pandemic. Why should I have to start flying because it benefits you?

But you want people to willing give something up that benefits them?

So give up stuff that benefits them and starting doing things that only benefits others?

Why don't you just give up flying to see family? That would benefit the planet and everyone else? I would imagine because, it would be ridiculous to expect you to something taht into benefits other people and never yourself.

The world's changed. Big events change it. A pandemic is a big event. Things never go back to exactly how they were before.

I have had my own business. Business need to be able to adapt to the current situation. If they can't, they fail. But when things change new businesses are created to fit the change.

I do think hybrid is the best solution. But I can't agree anyone should be obliged to make their own life worse.

It’s free market economics. People pick and choose what thrust wish to spend their money on.

If demand increases for something loads of companies/entrepreneurs jump in to supply it and take peoples money.

Which is exactly what will happen here with current supply and demand chains.

I'm permanent WFH now as we've closed our office (very small company) sometimes I like it more than others. It is quite isolating but I enjoy no commute, putting a wash on instead of having to do it in the evening etc.

I see Mark Drakeford has just gone back to a WFH if possible policy for Wales so I wonder if we will be too far behind?

@Hekatestorch

Why do so many people have so much trouble comprehending that not everyone is as selfish as them? I'm not talking about 'my' flights. I'm talking about the industry in general. A lot of people just aren't seeing that if they don't make use of things, they won't be there anymore. Applies to airlines, restaurants, gyms, pretty much everything. I can't wait for the whingeing and moaning in a year or two when people get bored of being at home all the time and realise all the things they took for granted are gone because they didn't support them.

It really is shocking how many people seem utterly incapable of thinking of anyone except themselves. Complete self absorption all over this thread. "WFH suits me and my family so screw everyone else."

This is such a hypocritical attitude.

I didn't fly much pre pandemic. Why should I have to start flying because it benefits you?

But you want people to willing give something up that benefits them?

So give up stuff that benefits them and starting doing things that only benefits others?

Why don't you just give up flying to see family? That would benefit the planet and everyone else? I would imagine because, it would be ridiculous to expect you to something taht into benefits other people and never yourself.

The world's changed. Big events change it. A pandemic is a big event. Things never go back to exactly how they were before.

I have had my own business. Business need to be able to adapt to the current situation. If they can't, they fail. But when things change new businesses are created to fit the change.

I do think hybrid is the best solution. But I can't agree anyone should be obliged to make their own life worse.

Well then I'm not talking about you, am I? I'm talking about the people who go to Tenerife every year for cheap and are expecting to resume that when they feel like it again, or who go to the continent on the Eurostar and expect to keep doing it after the pandemic for the same low prices they did before. If Eurostar stops running because nobody is using it, that's most likely it. We then have no train service to the continent and are even more cut off than before. Perhaps you would enjoy living in Little England but I certainly wouldn't.

The world's changed.

America, including New York City, is back to work. In offices.

The USA has recognised the value in it. For the many people lacking the privilege of comfortable home working environment (eg the young and the poor), and also (perhaps more importantly for the politicians and big businesses) for the national economy.

@rozziie A lot (obviously not all) the people who want full-time permanent WFH are affluent. It's not people living in tiny bedsits, studios, HMOs, or houseshares. Nor even those living in cramped smaller houses.

WFH is good for affluent middle class, middle aged, with a settled family life. They can afford more expensive holidays - and cars, to get around when they want to (because public transport will be further decimated by WFH). It's very much a case of I'm Alright Jack.

@Fordian

Lots of interesting replies.

Hybrid must surely be the way to go?

Full WFH isn't great for young people. My DS spent 13 months wfh as his year in industry from uni. He never met a single fellow worker in person in that time; he learned nothing of 'office culture', got no informal mentoring, bounced not a single idea around among work mates around 'the water cooler'. He'd climb out of bed, head to the desk in his room, do a day's work, then repeat. It was an isolating experience, and, how do quieter, shyer kids ever meet new friends or partners?

DH wfh in the spare room. He's quite liked wfh, though his office is an easy 10 min commute away, but I think he's become quite insular. Even he's conceded the day or so a week he's had to go I have been good, catching up with some of his team.

I'm front-line HCP so I've headed into work 4 days a week throughout but, personally, I dislike never being alone at home. There's always someone here (a thing DH likes).

Fortunately DS2 went back to uni last week and DS1 is going later today. They need to get on with their lives, but I suspect both will be studying from home for the most part.

And I do agree that this will widen 'the divide' between younger and older people in that when we were young, we were taught, guided, mentored, learned from the example of the older people in 'the office'. Now we are 'the older people', we, by choosing to stay home, aren't reciprocating.

This is all absolutely valid. So many young people are now going to be deprived of important work and life experience and developing social skills as they move into adulthood. It was already bad enough, with many young people spending so much time on social media, and now we're taking away one of the few things that forced people to get out and about and talk to others in 'real life'. It's now possible to literally never leave your house. How on earth is that healthy or a good development?

Part of life is mixing with people from different backgrounds and discovering new things. Not surprising your son has become insular - I'm sure everyone has. Your world is now what you choose to curate it as. If you WFH in the spare room and only like watching anime, that's now your world. People's worlds have become absolutely tiny.

It's just insane how all the I'm Alright Jacks who already have their solid relationships, solid friendships and solid careers want to snatch it all away from everyone else just so their life is a bit more convenient.

[quote Tealightsandd]@rozziie A lot (obviously not all) the people who want full-time permanent WFH are affluent. It's not people living in tiny bedsits, studios, HMOs, or houseshares. Nor even those living in cramped smaller houses.

WFH is good for affluent middle class, middle aged, with a settled family life. They can afford more expensive holidays - and cars, to get around when they want to (because public transport will be further decimated by WFH). It's very much a case of I'm Alright Jack.[/quote]
Absolutely @Tealightsandd. It's utter selfishness and self absorption. People choosing to isolate themselves and not give back to society because it's not convenient. Most of them wouldn't be where they are now if they hadn't learned from others at work or had the opportunity to meet their partners at uni/work or other 'real life' places young people now have a hard time frequenting.

They don't need to worry about the train into town being reduced to once an hour because nobody is using it. They can just jump in the 4x4. They don't need to suffer the mental health aspects of living in a cramped space. They all have big houses with gardens. The same people who sailed through the pandemic having a jolly old time baking, having BBQs in the garden and ordering in nice takeaways are the same people who will benefit most from WFH while everyone else struggles.

Utterly selfish.