To have completely changed my mind about WFH?

[MauvePinkRose]

I know there is a WFH thread but I mean this more generally than the specific things about it that are driving me to drink!

Pre pandemic, I would have said that WFH was a positive thing that employers should absolutely allow, reducing traffic and therefore pollution, allowing more quality time at home.

Now, I’ve changed my mind.

I think it’s having a negative impact on public transport, which in turn will lead to redundancies and reduced public transport, which is bad news for those who can’t drive. It is also having a knock on effect on things like coffee kiosks and sandwich bars.

Then, I’m not convinced that WFH is as productive as people think. I don’t know what’s going on with DVLA for instance but I am still waiting for a driving license I sent off for three months ago and you can’t get through on the phones.

It’s turned family homes into workplaces and thus impacts everyone. I’ve had some really stressful and unpleasant times because of it.

And I do think it’s not very healthy. Dp rarely leaves the house without me, has gained weight and falls ill all the time as I just feel he isn’t gaining any natural immunity.

I’ll probably be flamed by all the WFHers now

WFH is for older affluent workers with large homes and at a settled stage of life. It's crap for others (and for customers/clients)

This.

@Tealightsandd

worker productivity increased

They obviously didn't check out the companies I've tried to deal with over the past 18 months. Phones go unanswered, emails ignored, people don't call you back, staff seem incapable of transferring you to a colleague or manager.

Incompetence has flourished whilst customer service has nosedived.

Most reports I’ve looked at say that the majority have increased productivity across the board.

That is not to say that all have. And for those companies with bad communication, I imagine they weren’t that great before hand - as if I had a company and my employees were not answering basic calls wFH - I would be on it!

And two of my son’s friends are coffee shop workers. Happy to be on furlough. And now have lots more options as there are two new ‘pop up’ coffee places nearer us - so they don’t have to traipse on long commutes.

Of course WFH is great for the privileged. I’m not privileged. I am unable to work in an office because of caring responsibilities!

Making blanket statements for WFHomers isn’t really in the spirit of listening debate.

(Really wish I hadn’t ticked YANBU now… I was all for WFH having an option of an office if so wished! But see that many just don’t care about those who cannot… sigh… )

It's been amazing for me dances all over this thread

Seriously though, 'work' as we know it is changing, and changing forever. Hooray for choice.

Completely agree with you OP. There is resentment growing too in workplaces where output isn't monitored. Especially when you hear WFH colleagues saying they don't do any work in the day and do it all once the kids are in bed. So you get no response from them in working hours and they get paid for 7.5 hours and only actually do 3 hours work a day.

It's dreadful for the environment. All those thousands of houses having to be heated during the day.

Uneconomic bus routes will be cut if nobody uses them - not everyone lives in London.

Loss of mojo for work projects as you can't have a quick 5 mins with a colleague or boss to discuss things.

Being around partners too much kills relationships. There is literally nothing to talk about anymore.

Depression creeps in but you can't get out as you're supposed to be working so effectively a prisoner in your own home.

I dread to think how tough it is for those who have volatile relationships where the only time one partner is safe is whilst at work.

I'm sure there are loads more reasons not to carry on with it.

@gwenneh

As for people dismissing the plight of the low waged coffee shop workers. You may not care about the less privileged - people who aren't fortunate enough to have a comfortable WFH job and a spacious home environment suitable for working from, but huge numbers of lower paid workers are facing loss of livelihood.

The low waged coffee shop workers where I used to work might be having their hours cut, it's true. The low waged coffee shop workers nearer my house are having them increased.

People still go for lunch, get their coffee, etc. They're just not doing it in the same place.

This. Everyone's still eating more or less the same amount of food (maybe more), and drinking more or less the same amount of coffee. Local restaurants outside of commercial centers are getting much more weekday business than they used to, and at least in the US, they're all begging people to work there because they're understaffed. If less food is being eaten in restaurants, that means more food is being purchased from grocery stores. That, in turn, means additional job openings for staffing those stores and producing and transporting that food. They may have to change jobs or even move, but many people have had to do that because of covid. They're not going to end up worse off economically than they were before.

I don't care any less about coffee shop workers than I do anyone else who isn't a family member, and it has nothing to do with their earning capacity or degree of "privilege." The well-being of people outside my immediate family simply doesn't factor into my employment decisions or other major life choices. Honestly, I find the view that I'm morally obligated to arrange any aspect of my life around the economic well-being of complete strangers to be quite bizarre. I don't work for them, I'm not married to them, and I'm not their mother. My obligation to do what's best for my own family - including myself - greatly exceeds any obligation I might have to random coffee shop workers, or to anyone else. Likewise, their obligation to their own families greatly exceeds any obligation they might have to me (which, IMHO, is zero).

@Tealightsandd

This is old but it's still relevant.

www.theguardian.com/business/2020/aug/30/no-return-workers-offices-could-cost-uk-economy-480bn-pounds-cebr

Of course WFH is great for the privileged. Inequality will increase but plenty don't care about that. For people who don't have the luxury of being able to afford a comfortable spacious home working environment, opportunities will be lost.

Many roles will be limited to people with housing privilege.

It's also shit for young people just starting out. Miserable and isolating. WFH is for older affluent workers with large homes and at a settled stage of life. It's crap for others (and for customers/clients).

Actually plenty of people who live I less than ideal houses, also like wfh or hybrid.

Its also not shit for all young people. For many it actually opens up opportunities. Young people are not one group.

They are like everyone else. Will suit some. Won't suit others.

But also why is it the obligation of people to work in less than ideal circumstances, for them, to to recover the economy?

What if 50% of office works decide they don't want to buy their morning coffee anymore? Or are they obliged to. What if they don't buy their lunch anymore?

Are we also telling sahp to make sure they go out and spend money everyday locally to make sure local businesses who are thriving, don't suffer?

Or are office workers obliged to do both?

Also, plenty of office workers, who are at home are spending the money on other things or in other places. Therefore it's contributing to the economy.

Being around partners too much kills relationships. There is literally nothing to talk about anymore.

I'll have to let my DH know our relationship was supposed to suffer. Thanks for letting me know!

Ultimately I have no problem with someone WFH wanting to get back to some kind of office. (But you can do this now if you want)

You might want to do this because you are fed up/miss people/have relationship issues/just need it. Fair enough!

I do have a big problem with all the nonsense blanket statements that are just factually wrong just to back up wanting to not WFH - and trying to get it so that everyone has to go back to an office.

factually wrong and no data to back up assertions are

• economy diving
• coffee shop workers are starving
• the buses will stop
• the environment is going to hell (because houses (that already exist and don’t have to be built) are to be heated?!! Do you know how much of an environmental impact offices have?!)
• a work colleague does no work and you can’t get through to the council about your bins

All this “local coffee shops are booming” business…

I did a quick poll of wfh men I know. Not ONE has been to a coffee shop “to meet friends” and not ONE has bought lunch in a local cafe. Dh does not go out all day. Dd and ds’s friends’ dads wfh do not go out all day.

Men in general do not meet up for a coffee. Where have they suddenly found “coffee friends” anyway? (Same goes for women who were previously office-based.) you don’t suddenly know the whole town.

Pre-2020 Dh was buying a pricey London lunch every day, cappuccinos etc. Now he has (Waitrose!) soup.

You're right too OP that it's bad for the economy - and the environment, because public transport companies can't afford to run without ticket revenue.

There's a middle ground though. Trains are too expensive for the service that is (or isnt) provided.

Well two pop up coffee vans have opened in my local town. Maybe the men you know don’t go there, but there you go!

Do you even care @DottyHarmer that I am now able to work because I can WFH? It was pretty tough before I can tell you. Do I count in any way?

Public transport is too expensive and people I’ve suddenly become acutely aware of this having not had to use it during the pandemic.

I don’t think going back to working in the office because transport and shops is a good reason to be honest.

Clearly people are now fed up of working endlessly with nothing to show for it.

I think those who want to work in the office should do so, those who can WFH should br allowed to. And coffee shops will change to come thing that’s needed and wanted and public transport needs to be nationalised and priced at an affordable level. I let me team WFH if they want, I’m not having them stressed about ticket prices and trying to get into the office using services that are currently running fewer trains because pandemic or whatever excuse it is.

I prefer WFH too I do go in to the office but I’m getting once our lease is up we’ll be given a bigger WFH leeway.

dread to think how tough it is for those who have volatile relationships where the only time one partner is safe is whilst at work.

You see it all the time on the relationships board. An OP in a desperate situation advised to call Women's Aid when the abusive husband or partner is at work, or when she herself is at work. WFH is a gift for controlling spouses.

@DottyHarmer

All this “local coffee shops are booming” business…

I did a quick poll of wfh men I know. Not ONE has been to a coffee shop “to meet friends” and not ONE has bought lunch in a local cafe. Dh does not go out all day. Dd and ds’s friends’ dads wfh do not go out all day.

Men in general do not meet up for a coffee. Where have they suddenly found “coffee friends” anyway? (Same goes for women who were previously office-based.) you don’t suddenly know the whole town.

Pre-2020 Dh was buying a pricey London lunch every day, cappuccinos etc. Now he has (Waitrose!) soup.

Oh well if the men you know don't do it, must not happen.

Except dp walked to the cafe at the end of the road and got me and him and sandwich and drink. And got the same for the man doing the bathroom. Local tradesman, who is earning alot from local people and booked up for 6 months. We are spending money on local tradesmen AND local food/coffee places. That's all money in the economy. I drive to my office and wouldn't stop for a Costa or a Starbucks. So we are actually probably, over a week spending a bit more.

Tomorrow I will take a walk into town at some point. Its only 5 mins. I will get a few bits from the smaller non chain shops I like and something for lunch, for us and walk back in my lunch hour.

The local farm shop has been doing really well with take away food, for as long as they have been allowed to open and have extended their indoor seating area and kids playground. Which is now in use.

Again, they spent money on local tradesmen to have the work done. So yes, it may not be something the men you know do. But it's something that is happening in some people's areas. And it's even men who are doing it.

Actually I can’t work @NCBlossom , so, no, I don’t give a hoot about your particular circumstances. Why would I? I’m jolly pleased you’ve found a job but in the overall scheme of things you do not I’m afraid rate in the top 1,000 things that I have to worry about.

Let's not forgot that many companies have benefitted from wfh in terms of reducing costs to them.

People still go for lunch, get their coffee, etc. They're just not doing it in the same place.

This is my experience

worker productivity increased

True for DH & I although neither of us have any contact with the public. DHs company gave them productivity bonuses, but the reality was they were just working more.

Of course WFH is great for the privileged.

I think lots of people like the option not just the privileged.

I love wfh and I'm a don't want to returner! I save so much money and time on the commute and I agree with a pp that it's not my job to keep several prets in business. I like popping to the local to home indie coffee and sandwich shops occasionally though. I do need to work on getting more exercise as I have piled on weight though.

People who keep saying 'what about abuse victims?'

I was one. Its awful. And lockdown must have been awful. But the whole country can't operate in a way that's best for us. And let's be honest, most if you aren't that bothered about abused women, unless it suits your view point.

@Tealightsandd I take it you chose to work in the office all the way through the pandemic? Encouraged people to come in, incase they were abusing their partner.

Provided face to face support for younger members of staff?

Loss of mojo for work projects as you can't have a quick 5 mins with a colleague or boss to discuss things.

This is not universally true. In my recent experience we get more done and more quickly because we can have quick Teams calls with people rather than having to meet in person.

I agree that working out of the home should be an option for those who want it, but do you really want to impose compulsory presenteeism for those for whom WFH really does work?

Especially when you hear WFH colleagues saying they don't do any work in the day and do it all once the kids are in bed.

Why aren't their kids in childcare or school though?

Also do people forgot that most people didn't actually wfh & people already wfh pre pandemic. Coffee shops etc were impacted by the lack of socialising not just because people worked at home.

Money spent on going out went into peoples houses & gardens or increased supermarket shopping so money was still going into the economy.

Wait, so now I should make a point of going somewhere else for eight hours every day so my poor abused husband would have time to pack should he decide to do a runner?

@DottyHarmer

Actually I can’t work *@NCBlossom* , so, no, I don’t give a hoot about your particular circumstances. Why would I? I’m jolly pleased you’ve found a job but in the overall scheme of things you do not I’m afraid rate in the top 1,000 things that I have to worry about.

So don’t give a toss about me, people like me with disabilities, but you will bleat on about the poor coffee workers? You choose which people who deserve a job and which don’t I see. Just to prove your own point… Nice!

@DottyHarmer

Actually I can’t work *@NCBlossom* , so, no, I don’t give a hoot about your particular circumstances. Why would I? I’m jolly pleased you’ve found a job but in the overall scheme of things you do not I’m afraid rate in the top 1,000 things that I have to worry about.

Do you nit see how that statement is really odd?

@DottyHarmer

well Pret are planning a big expansion as some sites in regional towns were busier than they had ever been. DH went to our local Pret all the time.