AIBU to think Shamima is not coming across well?

[HurryUpAndWait23]

I do really feel for her, she was an exploited child and went through what appeared to be repeatedly brutal experiences.

But whenever she talks, the attitude and "the world owes me" way in which she speaks is not helping her cause at all.

@KittenKong

Joining a terrorist organisation?

Yes, I know. But that's all I know. And she was 15. So a lot of what pp are saying about grooming etc seems relevant. I want to know what then happened - what were her crimes?

I feel there's a difference between 'groomed into being an isis bride then can't get out of death cult' and 'joined isis, took part in terrorism, plotted, killed etc'. Assuming SB is somewhere between these two poles but no one seems to have any actual information?

@postingfortraffichere Yeah I just wonder though why we can't be told what those things are? Especially if they would make people agree she should never come back. Assuming that they are plots or events that are now past tense and not a security risk to divulge the information, why not just tell us?

I honestly don't know what to think about this situation and the more I look into it, the less certainty I have. In the interview she was grilled about things she'd said. Those things are horrific but saying horrible things shouldn't be enough to get your citizenship revoked. So there must be more - but I can't find out what.

There have been kids here who have been convicted of doing this here in the U.K. usually sad lads, in their grans back bedroom sharing beheading videos online and downloading the anarchists handbook. So these were also ‘groomed’.

Some have been detained, some have been told to ‘be good’.

[quote TheChiefJo]@Cadent I'm sorry but I fail to see the useful comparison between Begum and Guifre.

One has seen the error of her ways and has been instrumental to bringing crimes of coercion, exploitation and rape to the attention of the authorities.

The other is sad that a murderous project has ended.

Both women could be expected as teenagers to understand that killing defenceless people is wrong and criminal, but that point is only relevant to the Begum case.[/quote]
Where has SB said she’s sad it’s ended? She has also seen the error of her ways and said she’s stick to her stomach and hates herself.

Why is one allowed to repent and the other isn’t?

@Blackberrycream

‘Right leaning ‘ papers are still bound by journalistic code which is why it was widely reported in other press around the world. Sources were said to be CIA and Dutch military intelligence interviews with other westerners who had also joined ISIS. I rarely read The Telegraph. Strange that you jumped to that straight away. Wiki again? On a more serious note we are all reliant on second hand information.Regulated news bodies are the best we have. *@Xenia* I absolutely agree that more focus should be on Yazidis and the trauma they faced rather than the plight of those who rushed to join with their oppression. Germany have been especially proactive in this. I would like to see more reporting on the re settlement of these women and girls and the difficulties they are still facing. That would provide some balance.

No, those other papers quoted the Daily Telegraph, that’s why I mentioned it

It’s naive to think newspapers don’t have an agenda. Since when we have been fine with trial by media?

As I said, no allegations were raised in her court case. That would have been the time for Sajid Javid/the govt to submit evidence. But they didn’t.

@beastlyslumber

Did SB plot terror attacks? I saw a pp here saying she would plot another Manchester bombing? She doesn't seem bright enough to be plotting anything.

I'm just wondering what her actual terrorist activities were - can anyone link me to a clear outline of what she's accused of? All I can find is stuff about her becoming an IS bride, and stuff about what she's said. Nothing about what she's actually done.

I find it hard to believe someone as stupid as SB could have responsibility for plotting terror.

That’s because no evidence has been submitted. We are supposed to blindly accept the government’s version of events.

This is what troubles me. We've had a whole 40 page thread of people arguing about whether she was groomed/radicalised or just evil and criminal, but no one is able to say what it is that she's actually done?

That's not to say she hasn't done anything to warrant having her citizenship take from her.

But there's a big difference between a stupid 15 year old being groomed into thinking she should become an isis bride where she would be loved/valued etc and a clever 15 year old who planned and plotted against the west, took part in terrorist activities and saw herself as being high up in an evil organisation. The truth may well lie inbetween those two things.

If we don't know what she's supposed to have done then I'm not sure how anyone can have such a certain opinion on the situation, one way or another.

I agree @beastlyslumber

That’s because no evidence has been submitted. We are supposed to blindly accept the government’s version of events

Evidence was submitted to the Supreme Court. How could it teach judgement without evidence?

Evidence of what Blossomtoes? I haven't been able to find any details at all. What's your understanding of what's she's done?

I can't warm to her at all there is something false abt her.

@beastlyslumber

Evidence of what Blossomtoes? I haven't been able to find any details at all. What's your understanding of what's she's done?

I don’t know what she’s done. Javid told us that, if we knew what he does, nobody would question the removal of her citizenship. That would be the evidence presented to the Supreme Court when it ruled against her. I’m happy to trust the Supreme Court. It seems pretty trustworthy to me. It’s clearly not in the government’s pocket, given that it ruled against its attempt to prorogue parliament.

Javid told us that, if we knew what he does, nobody would question the removal of her citizenship

I wonder why he doesn't tell us then. It seems a bit odd not to, given that the circumstances have now changed so completely. Seems unlikely that there's a security reason although I suppose that's the most obvious thing it could be. You'd think we'd have the broad strokes though, if not the details.

@Blossomtoes

See, I don’t think she’s remotely stupid. I think she’s a very bright young woman. No stupid 15 year old could meticulously plan her departure from the UK undetected. Apparently she was academically clever too. I think the damage she could do if she was repatriated is immense.

I agree. She's extremely clever.

Every sentence she speaks is carefully calculated.

But she let herself slide by always talking about Britain as if it was our country and not hers. Yet she's claims she's British and wants to return here.

What are the chances that one of these jihadi brides was allowed to get back home , because she was found to be of no threat?

And as for their background and society’s perception . Yes some might , but I find it hard to believe that they all come from underprivileged families , or oppressed by their strict upbringing,
One of these girls was studying medicine, some where high achievers , there are pictures of them, having fun and doing what most non Muslim girls their age do.
Why should their parents take the blame?
They must be heartbroken.

@beastlyslumber

Javid told us that, if we knew what he does, nobody would question the removal of her citizenship

I wonder why he doesn't tell us then. It seems a bit odd not to, given that the circumstances have now changed so completely. Seems unlikely that there's a security reason although I suppose that's the most obvious thing it could be. You'd think we'd have the broad strokes though, if not the details.

Security. It would also jeopardise the possibility of a fair trial if that ever became a possibility. There could be numerous reasons for not releasing that information.

God knows. We just don't have enough information.

If she's clever, she's exceptionally clever, a genius even. No one could come across that stupid without actually being stupid, unless they were a genius level liar and manipulator. But then so many people have said they don't believe her... which suggests she's not that clever really? I mean, she comes across thick as mince. And her plan to join isis and [whatever it was] was spectacularly stupid, which any even normal-level intelligent young girl would have realised.

From the Supreme Court sentencing remarks:

“As to the first of those alternatives, there was no evidence before the court from the police, the Crown Prosecution Service or the Director of Public Prosecutions as to whether it was either possible or appropriate to ensure that Ms Begum was arrested on her return and charged with an offence. Those were not, of course, matters for decision by the Secretary of State. Nor was it known whether, if she were arrested and charged, she would be remanded in custody: that would be a matter for the courts. As to the second alternative, there was no evidence, nor any submissions, before the Court of Appeal as to whether or not a TPIM could or would be imposed on Ms Begum, or as to the effectiveness of any such measure in addressing the risk which she might pose, having regard, for example, to the resources available to monitor compliance with TPIMs and the demands on those resources.”

It does sound like because they don’t know what to do with her, that it is just easier to forget about her.

That’s not justice.

There could be numerous reasons for not releasing that information.

Maybe we should be told the reasons then. She's been found guilty in the sense that she's had her citizenship taken. I can't see why we couldn't be told "she took part in planning a terrorist attack" for example.

I don’t think she comes across as stupid at all. She comes across as cunning and manipulative to me. Her plan to support Isis is only stupid if you hold western mores and values. She thought she’d be the revered mother of Isis warriors. As Madeley said, if Isis hadn’t been defeated, she’d have been Queen Bee.

@beastlyslumber

Javid told us that, if we knew what he does, nobody would question the removal of her citizenship

I wonder why he doesn't tell us then. It seems a bit odd not to, given that the circumstances have now changed so completely. Seems unlikely that there's a security reason although I suppose that's the most obvious thing it could be. You'd think we'd have the broad strokes though, if not the details.

I too wonder what he knows and why he doesn't share. Him saying that makes everyone think of something far worse than it probably, or possibly, is.

My view is that the government are attempting to make an example of Shamima Begum.

In some ways she is her own worst enemy because she is so obviously intelligent and it comes quite naturally to her to converse in an articulate way. Yet that masks so much - the death of her children for a start.

There are terrorists and terrorist groups in this country all the time. The police know about some but not all.

If Shamima was allowed to return here, a very close eye would be kept on her for a long time - maybe even forever. I think that should be done but with no publicity about her return so that she isn't hounded by the media and can get on with her life.

There's maybe a good argument that her case is a strong deterrent to any British people considering getting involved in anti-British terrorism. Whether that's actually just or not might be beside the point for the British government.

She thought she’d be the revered mother of Isis warriors.

But that is a stupid thing to think.

@beastlyslumber

There's maybe a good argument that her case is a strong deterrent to any British people considering getting involved in anti-British terrorism. Whether that's actually just or not might be beside the point for the British government.

Very good point. I’m sure that’s an element.