AIBU to think Shamima is not coming across well?

[HurryUpAndWait23]

I do really feel for her, she was an exploited child and went through what appeared to be repeatedly brutal experiences.

But whenever she talks, the attitude and "the world owes me" way in which she speaks is not helping her cause at all.

I remember reading an article about the isis female morals police - apparently the ones from the U.K. had a reputation for being the most viscous, violent and cruel. If often wondered why that was.

[quote LoislovesStewie]@habibibibi, I think it suits you to believe that she is some totally innocent person who has done nothing wrong, whereas others, and I am one of them, believe that she decided that she would have a high old time in the caliphate. There were lots of others who thought it would be paradise, she wasn't alone in thinking that. I'm sure many of those who went are dead. As I said earlier I think she made a choice and that turned out to be the wrong one, and now she has to live with it. We will never know exactly what she did, but I suspect it was more than she admits in public.[/quote]
I don't think she's innocent at all, actually. But, I also don't think it's my or your place to judge that and to have punishment determined in the court of public opinion by a politician. I don't know the full extent of what she did and how she was recruited and if there were any mitigating factors such as her level of maturity.

As with any one who has committed crimes including serious ones, she IS entitled to her day in court and due process. I wold say this for someone who had committed crimes as an adult adn even more so for someone who did so as a minor. And whether lifetime banishment as a stateless person is a fitting and appropriate punishment for what she has done should be decided in court by a judge

She should be tried in court, in the country where the alleged crimes were committed and where there may be witnesses who can give evidence for the defence and prosecution.

A court in another country e.g. the UK, is most unlikely to be able to arrive at a fair judgement.

And the court would judge the criminal case, not her right to come to the UK.which an entirely different issue.

@GladAllOver

She should be tried in court, in the country where the alleged crimes were committed and where there may be witnesses who can give evidence for the defence and prosecution.

A court in another country e.g. the UK, is most unlikely to be able to arrive at a fair judgement.

And the court would judge the criminal case, not her right to come to the UK.which an entirely different issue.

Yeah but the Kurds don't want to do that. They want the foreigners to go back to their countries of origin and the countries which sent them to deal with them. If you think handing her over to the Assad regime - which will torture and murder her as they have done hundreds of thousands of others - is the right thing to do, then you're no better than she is.

There’s a thread on MN currently about a MNer not allowing her 15 to go to Stoke on the train with a friend as he’s not old enough.

It's hard to know if that's really how you read it or are deliberately misrepresenting what was written. The son is 16 and has just started college, so could either be only just 16 or very nearly 17. The mother was concerned because he's only just met the friend he wants to go with and she doesn't know if the friend is "sensible" and she's not met him. She's also concerned that her son doesn't know his way around the place they plan to visit and doesn't know if the friend does either. It appears people responding to the thread unanimously think she's BU.

There have been many people stripped of their British citizenship-it's in three figures-so why do she and her supporters think she is above that punishment.

Anyhow, not only could she beg Bangladesh-she won'r because it would be the death penalty there for her- she could remember that she is a member of another state-the Islamic State.

She couldn't wait to run off to join it, she enjoyed while it lasted and that's who she belongs to.

@SailYourShips

Most of those people would have been naturalized British citizens with another nationality. Not British from bith and also rendered stateless.

She's not above punishment but she is entitled to due process, like anyone else, including those accused of the most heinous of crimes.

@sjxoxo

@Cadent I agree with you…There’s a thread on MN currently about a MNer not allowing her 15 to go to Stoke on the train with a friend as he’s not old enough. I feel like Shamima is treated as if she was 35 when she made these choices… she was a child and of course groomed! Who would go to a war zone without being groomed. I would argue a lot of those in Isis have been groomed; by definition I think being radicalised is a form of grooming surely…it’s not rational behaviour. For me the question is more whether you are responsible/of sound mind when you make those choices. She was a child so in my eyes no. Why is there so little mention of her parents? I think they should bear some responsibility as she was a child! I don’t know what the solution is for her but I also don’t think she should be left to rot. Yes she joined a terrorist group which is counter to our way of life. So is murder but we don’t revoke citizenship of murders.. they have consequences but not stateless exile. xo

Agreed. The similarity with Virginia Giuffre is quite uncanny. Giuffre was trained to find and groom other young girls to have sex with Epstein and Begum was trained to recruit other young girls as wives.

And yet Giuffre is lauded as brave and Begum is accused here of ‘participating in rapes and murders’, when she hasn’t.

The difference between characterisation of white vs brown girls is stark.

If you think handing her over to the Assad regime - which will torture and murder her as they have done hundreds of thousands of others - is the right thing to do, then you're no better than she is
I have not suggested that she should be handed over to any regime. Only that a fair trial can only be held where a proper case can be made. If that's not possible then she can choose to stay in the camp.

She's not above punishment but she is entitled to due process, like anyone else, including those accused of the most heinous of crimes

What heinous crimes in the UK has she been accused of? If she is accused of heinous crimes in another country then let them prosecute her.

I am beginning to suspect that the government was hoping an epidemic of some kind would wipe the camps out, and we wouldn’t have to bother much with Plan B.

I do feel sorry for her. She was a child. At 16 I didn't have any interest in knowing what was going on in the world, all I cared about was going put with friends and being accepted, and I did some pretty stupid things to be accepted by older men.
She was groomed and someone who has been through the things she has been through probably won't be a very emotional person. My dp went through quite a turbulent childhood and you could see he is quite emotionally stinted, and it was nothing compared to what that woman would have been through as a CHILD.

What is unbelievable is that a CHILD was able to leave the country alone and join ISIS! Completely let down, groomed by an organisation that is notoriously good at brainwashing people. I find people's attitudes towards her very unsettling and quite sad. She may be an adult now, but she wasn't back then.

@GladAllOver

She's not above punishment but she is entitled to due process, like anyone else, including those accused of the most heinous of crimes

What heinous crimes in the UK has she been accused of? If she is accused of heinous crimes in another country then let them prosecute her.

But she hasn't been accused of any crimes by any country. Including the UK. That's the whole point. She could stand trial in the UK for crimes committed abroad, especialyl related to terrorism.

@GladAllOver

If you think handing her over to the Assad regime - which will torture and murder her as they have done hundreds of thousands of others - is the right thing to do, then you're no better than she is I have not suggested that she should be handed over to any regime. Only that a fair trial can only be held where a proper case can be made. If that's not possible then she can choose to stay in the camp.

Well, if you want Syria to hold a trial for her, that involves handing her over to the Assad regime which has zero concept of a fair trial.

And the Kurds who run the camp certainly don't want her. She's not their problem either.

Sorry, Britain has to clean up its own house, can't outsource it to others.

If there is to be no trial here then there is no need for her to come here.

@GladAllOver

If there is to be no trial here then there is no need for her to come here.

a) she could be prosecuted. I understnd a case was being built against her. b) regardless, she's British and Britain can't outsource its problems to other countries when it becomes too inconvenient to deal with. She's not Bangladesh's problem and she's not Syria's. She's Britain's.

Not any more because she is no longer British

@SailYourShips

Not any more because she is no longer British

Yes, we know. But she IS British and a British problem. Too bad we can't deport all our criminals like the good old days, eh?

I don't think she comes across well, but neither does the media by overly focusing on her.

She is only the second person this has ever happened to. And it’s worrying that people think it’s ok.

No she isn't, by a long shot, as others have said. There were dozens of cases of citizenship deprivation before she even left the UK .

News outlets from the Daily Mail Daily Mail to the The Guardian have discussed over 100 people being deprived of British citizenship, with multiple terrorist examples, since the law changes which allowed it came into effect.

We even have cases of it being revoked, leaving someone stateless, because of questions around details he gave decades ago when he immigrated from Serbia as a teenager.

We gain no benefits from acting like she's one of very few people this has happened to when the reality is very different.

But they lied. She doesn’t have dual citizenship, you can and should only take someone’s citizenship if they are dual nationality..

Why should a dual national's citizenship be able to be torn apart, but not someone with one nationality?

Why should I be offered fewer rights because I'm a dual national that my spouse who only has one nationality?

So why are people making an example of Shamima but turning a blind eye to everything else that’s gone on?

People can want justice for more than one thing.

I support full accountability for atrocities commited by members of any military, but I don't see how that's relevant to this topic.

As others have said, as the Kurds don't want to try her and Syria is as it is, things have become difficult though it's also difficult to see how she can be properly tried in the UK which is why it hasn't really been done. The gov't has gone the route of citizenship deprivation instead, repeatedly, because that meets their goals.

It was established that she is entitled to Bangladesh citizenship under family connections.

Being entitled to apply doesn't mean a right to get, especially when applying as an adult -- most nations have a 'good character' element for this these days, even for those with a bloodline tie. The UK could do the same thing if the shoe was on the other foot.

it disgusts me that the sole one to be chosen by the media and government to be made an example of was a kid

I agree with many media outlet's focus, but she's not the only one the government has done this to. I don't think the government has helped anything - I just think they're largely following the media and public emotions on this - it's easier for them.

One of the sticky bits of debates about the complexities of moral judgements is that few of us know enough about the laws of our own land, & also the laws of countries where we live or visit.

Seemingly harsh or indulgent sentences viewed by the general public are well within sentencing guidelines.

Found with a few drugs in your handbag, polite tap on the wrist in Eurozone, & full on sentence in difficult conditions elsewhere.

Bit of random online browsing may bring you to spend too much at ASOS, porn site or into content by organisations that are proscribed by the Terrorism Act.

Most of don’t know UK framework well enough until we become victims or perpetrators of a crime. Also many people confuse US & UK law due to American TV programmes.

Not all countries have the legal principle of innocent until proven guilty, & that the burden of proof is to prove you guilty. Not always so on t’telly.

It should be bourne in mind that SB was in an educational & community environment where radicalisation was already a significant concern & the proscription of Daesh/ISIS well established.

I felt sorry for her until I saw Savid Javed interviewed on TV about her and he said he’d seen the evidence on her himself and that’s why he stripped her of her nationality and that it had gone sll the way to the top court and they agreed based on the evidence.

I think she’s been in the thick of ISIS and deeper than we think.

I don’t believe a word she says.
I don’t think that means she should be Syria’s problem though.

And yet Giuffre is lauded as brave and Begum is accused here of ‘participating in rapes and murders’, when she hasn’t.

The difference between characterisation of white vs brown girls is stark.

Bollocks. Gruffre is being lauded for suing and fighting back against the establishment. A sizeable section of the population still think she knew what she was doing.
Begum has made a half arsed attempt at an explanation without very much remorse.

I’m not a ‘You’ve made your Bed now lie in a type of person’ If they are sorry and can see the error of the ways, but to say she has no regrets and wasn’t fazed by heads in bins then, defended the Manchester Arena bombings then No I don’t want her back here, either). Let’s not forget she was after all 15 when she went there. Old enough to know right from wrong good from bad. The age of criminal responsibility is 10 so No one could pull the “She didn’t really know what she was doing”.card. I have a 4 year old nephew he knows right from wrong.

@sjxoxo, you raised some interesting points:

‘For me the question is more whether you are responsible/of sound mind when you make those choices’ - but this is not a matter of mental capacity, & if it were, she would pass with flying colours as she could articulate her ideas & undertook the task of organising herself to get out to Syria.

‘She was a child so in my eyes no’ - but not in the eyes of the law to which we are all subject. She is well over the age of criminal responsibility in the UK, Iraq & Syria, & for most countries with legitimate legal systems.

‘Why is there so little mention of her parents? I think they should bear some responsibility as she was a child’ - there was some MSM attention paid to her parents at first, & I have since read that some family members think that she should be stripped of her citizenship.

‘! I don’t know what the solution is for her but I also don’t think she should be left to rot.’ - I don’t know the ideal solution that balances justice, national security & some form of mercy. I don’t think that she can be rehabilitated at this time, I think she would seek to radicalise in prison so any incarceration would be solitary/highly controlled.

‘Yes she joined a terrorist group which is counter to our way of life.’ - just plain illegal. Terrorism is not an expression of a difference lifestyle or culture,
So is murder but we don’t revoke citizenship of murders.’ - we sentence murderers so that they are deprived of their liberty, often for the rest of their life. In some countries, convicted murderers are swiftly executed.

‘they have consequences but not stateless exile.’ - Correct, but in the immediate instance the alleged crime is not murder, it is crimes committed under the Terrorism Act & there are different outcomes.

Bluntly, of course she wants to get back to the UK, she may face trial by the Syrian authorities.