AIBU to think Shamima is not coming across well?

[HurryUpAndWait23]

I do really feel for her, she was an exploited child and went through what appeared to be repeatedly brutal experiences.

But whenever she talks, the attitude and "the world owes me" way in which she speaks is not helping her cause at all.

People have used the phrase Death Cult a lot - rightly so - so maybe look at it like that. Your 15-year-old daughter gets interested online, and is groomed into joining a cult. She slips out one night and goes to join it. Once she's there. there's no way out. She is given to a man she's never met - at 15 - who (what we would describe in any other circumstances) rapes her. She has babies by this man. They die. The cult is hellish - rapes, tortures, mutilations, murders are commonplace.

She has some marginal protection by being the 'wife' of the man, but also it is clear that if she does not conform to and participate in the brutish nightmare of the cult's daily activiites, she will become a victim of the hell she sees around her everyday. This goes on for years.

The cult is finally raided, broken up. The terrible stuff that went on within its walls is common knowledge. Your daughter is held in a shitty detention camp without access to anything except the basics, along with other members of the cult.

I dunno about you, but I'd want her taken to a place of safety where her culpability and trauma could both be assessed, and dealt with. Rather than, say, steepling my fingers and saying "Meh. She joined the cult. She's not saying the right words, and I'm not convinced by that hat."

Without interviewing her (security forces, not a happy morning TV interview), no one really knows the extent to which she was groomed. She should face justice in the UK - I don't agree with the UK Govt. decision to revoke her citizenship and claim that she is Bangladeshi, when she was born in the UK.
The lack of empathy - could arise from grooming/abuse/stuff that she has witnessed while abroad.

@Itstheprinciple

I complete Prevent training annually. We are told to treat Prevent as part of safeguarding. Shamima's story is exactly what Prevent is aiming to avoid. In her case, she was not safeguarded. No one noticed (or, of they did, did anything) that she was being radicalised. Whatever negative things she would have heard about ISIS would have been explained away as being justifiable as following the 'true Muslim way'.

Once she was there, do you think she could have just turned around and said she'd changed her mind and wanted to come home? No, of course not.

If someone powerful in ISIS told me to sew up a suicide vest, I think I would jolly well have sewn it up if I was in fear for my life, or the life of my child.

If I saw a head in a bin, but I had been told that they had committed some 'terrible' sin, then I would go along with it.

When she did those initial interviews in the hijab, she was still within the original camp, so of course she couldn't speak freely about Manchester bombings or heads in bins. I imagine what she knew or could find out about the outside world was very limited and told to her through an ISIS lense.

For those saying she comes across poorly, she has been contained within a very strange environment for most of her formative years. She is probably still struggling with cognitive dissonance about the different things she has been told.

In my opinion, she is a victim and should be treated as such. She has been failed by us.

Whatever negative things she would have heard about ISIS would have been explained away as being justifiable as following the 'true Muslim way

The problem with that concept, is that it somehow justifies the horrific behaviour. It could also be used to excuse all of those that believe in these crazy ideologies. Men, women and anyone affiliated with such extremist groups.

‘Oh well, they didn’t mean it, the terrorist were told god wanted them to do you and they’ll be rewarded with 10 virgins’ and all that absolute bollocks.

The next argument is that if you justify it, you could say they’re all insane be are no rational human would believe such rubbish and let them off…?

The point is, regardless of a persons beliefs, or how these beliefs are presented, the majority of people wouldn’t want to hurt someone, never mind kill people. And that would be enough for them not to run off with a terrorist group.

There’s NO EXCUSE, no justification. Only an absolute nasty bastard would would chose to do it

I believe that it was wrong for her citizenship to have been stripped as a matter of principle but I can’t lose any sleep over her plight as she brought it on herself.
I also believe that we should have accepted her back (and put her on trial) only if she’d managed to make it back on her own accord; a few years a go that journey would have been more dangerous and she should have undertaken it at her own risk.

The western dress thing is laughable because she’s obviously been advised / coached in that respect.. but why is she still saying the completely wrong stuff? Why isn’t she getting better advice?

Why did she keep focusing on it being women and children who died in Manchester? Who cares, men dying is equally as tragic. The women and children bit that she kept coming back to makes it sound very much that she still believes that we are at war and that killing civilian men is justifiable.

I'm a bit about all this "we failed her" stuff. You could say the same about any criminal, especially sex offenders and paedophiles who statistically have a high chance of having been abused themselves.

So why don't we hear people saying "oh, that poor paedophile. He wouldn't have raped all those children if we'd helped him sooner"?

@ColorMagicBarbie

I'm a bit about all this "we failed her" stuff. You could say the same about any criminal, especially sex offenders and paedophiles who statistically have a high chance of having been abused themselves.

So why don't we hear people saying "oh, that poor paedophile. He wouldn't have raped all those children if we'd helped him sooner"?

Exactly!

@Redgeraniums

I think most of the population really aren’t clever enough to understand this situation.

We should not be stripping people who are born here of their citizenship - ever.

She is only the second person this has ever happened to. And it’s worrying that people think it’s ok.

Apparently over 100 people have been stripped

Mr Javid fired back: "That's not the case at all. There are a number of people, well over 100 - and that's a people number - people who were stripped of their citizenship as a last resort to protect the UK, so she's not a special case.

Yes I don't think she's helping herself either. I only saw some of her interview as I turned over as the dcs started listening. She came across entitled and like the world owes her a favour. I can help the government and tell them how I was groomed etc as they clearly don't know what they are doing. Ok- she could but she's really not working it right.

What absolute rubbish. She was the abuser
At 15? Before she somehow thought it would a great idea to get in that plane?

She was a weak and vulnerable 15yo, radicalised for who knows how long to lead her to do this. How many 15yo would feel confident getting on a plane to go to France on holiday with 3 friends, let alone taking a plane to a war place, never coming back.

Of course she wasn't mentally and emotionally manipulated to do that.

How many 15yo would feel confident getting on a plane to go to France on holiday with 3 friends, let alone taking a plane to a war place, never coming back

Precisely. You’re actually arguing against yourself now.

So why don't we hear people saying "oh, that poor paedophile. He wouldn't have raped all those children if we'd helped him sooner
Don't you think that's why social services are involved as soon as they are notified of a child at risk? Because they accept that these kids are vulnerable?

She was vulnerable as a 15yo girl being groomed and yes, most in these circumstances get plenty of support.

*Apparently over 100 people have been stripped

Mr Javid fired back: "That's not the case at all. There are a number of people, well over 100 - and that's a people number - people who were stripped of their citizenship as a last resort to protect the UK, so she's not a special case.*

Very disingenuous.

Out of those 100, how many were naturalized citizens and how many were British from birth?

And evem worse, how many were made stateless contrary to both British and international law? She IS not a dual national, she could apply for Bangladeshi citizenship as her PARENTS are Bangladeshi. But Bangladesh has made it quite clear they would not grant her citizenship (which they don't have to do). She is not Bangladeshi, she is British and she should stand trial for any crimes against British law in a British court where due consideration would be given to her age a the time.

I really don't get why what's happening is considered OK regardless of how she comes across in a TV interview. It's against British and international law. You are not allowed to make someone stateless!! She has NO nationality now.

Precisely. You’re actually arguing against yourself now
No I'm not! My point is that most wouldn't unless they were severely manipulated.

Let's hope it's not one of your child who is groomed by a 25yo man, at 15, and taken abroad.

What she said is unforgivable but this was a very vulnerable person whose gone through hell because she is probably not very clever, influenceable and weak.

Should she be able to come back? I don't have an opinion. Does she deserve her life as it is now? Probably not.

Let's hope it's not one of your child who is groomed by a 25yo man, at 15, and taken abroad

Indeed. Let’s hope. My only child is 46 now.

@vivainsomnia

So why don't we hear people saying "oh, that poor paedophile. He wouldn't have raped all those children if we'd helped him sooner Don't you think that's why social services are involved as soon as they are notified of a child at risk? Because they accept that these kids are vulnerable?

She was vulnerable as a 15yo girl being groomed and yes, most in these circumstances get plenty of support.

Getting groomed to have sex with someone, where no one else is harmed other than the 15 year old in question, isn’t the same scenario as joining the most notorious terrorist organisation in the world!

@vivainsomnia

She is not very vulnerable. I'd like to ask those women who came into contact with her if they thought she was vulnerable or weak. Answers on a postcard please!

When you say 'not very clever' what do you mean?

She was clever at school if you mean academically and , if you mean in general, she is clever enough to realise that she has to jump ship onto the winning side and present a picture that has fooled some people but not the majority and, thankfully, not those in a position to keep her murderous arse away from these shores.

Two states have rejected her. Do you they might have reasons for that?

For those who are hopelessly waving the racism card, in an ever frantic attempt to scrape the barrel while being her cheerleaders, one of those states comprises of people the exact same genetic make up, colour and heritage as she is.

They don't want this person either and they're absolutely right.

She is stateless, long may she remain so!

@houseonthehill

People have used the phrase Death Cult a lot - rightly so - so maybe look at it like that. Your 15-year-old daughter gets interested online, and is groomed into joining a cult. She slips out one night and goes to join it. Once she's there. there's no way out. She is given to a man she's never met - at 15 - who (what we would describe in any other circumstances) rapes her. She has babies by this man. They die. The cult is hellish - rapes, tortures, mutilations, murders are commonplace.

She has some marginal protection by being the 'wife' of the man, but also it is clear that if she does not conform to and participate in the brutish nightmare of the cult's daily activiites, she will become a victim of the hell she sees around her everyday. This goes on for years.

The cult is finally raided, broken up. The terrible stuff that went on within its walls is common knowledge. Your daughter is held in a shitty detention camp without access to anything except the basics, along with other members of the cult.

I dunno about you, but I'd want her taken to a place of safety where her culpability and trauma could both be assessed, and dealt with. Rather than, say, steepling my fingers and saying "Meh. She joined the cult. She's not saying the right words, and I'm not convinced by that hat."

If my daughter supported an organisation that rapes and tortures I would find that hard to forgive. She agreed with their policies and there is no evidence she didn’t want the marriage either.

If my daughter did such a thing, I may condemn her actions but I would nonetheless want her to have the legal protection of the country of her birth and for her to have a fair trial rather than being used as political fodder.

I think the government must know a lot more about her than we do.
Obviously, they’re not going to share all the details with the public.
There is a reason this woman is not welcome back in Britain. There is a reason she has had her citizenship revoked.
And the reason is not because of the colour of her skin!

@1happyhippie

I think the government must know a lot more about her than we do. Obviously, they’re not going to share all the details with the public. There is a reason this woman is not welcome back in Britain. There is a reason she has had her citizenship revoked. And the reason is not because of the colour of her skin!

They probably do but her punishment should be determined in a court of law, not by politicians. Why can her alleged crimes not be discussed openly and for due judicial process to take place? Dangerous criminals and terrorists are not stripped of citizenship despite heinous and despicable crimes, so why her?

She is a British problem, not a Bangladeshi one. Her parents are immigrants from Bangladesh, she was born and bred in Britiain.

It is ILLEGAL to render someone stateless by both British and international law. She is NOT a dual national, she is now stateless which is not allowed. Bangladesh do have any responsibility here for Britain's creation.

Apparently her husband says Shamima was paid a wage by ISIS.
I don’t know why he said it -as he must know how much that condemns her.

Now she’s offered to help the government oppose them. Surely she will be in even greater danger in the camp than before. And if she isn’t murdered soon for denouncing ISIS, I assume that is because she is a double agent.

@vivainsomnia

Er…because one ran off with their adult teacher and one ran off to join a disgustingly violent and cruel terrorist organisation, that’s maybe why they’re judged differently

Many posters are totally missing the point. The fact that the outcome was severe doesn't make the grooming or radicalisation any less significant, if anything it's the exact opposite.

This girl was and most still is as vulnerable as it gets. It's sad she is being judge on the outcome of her abuse rather than the fact that she's been abused in the worse possible way in the first place.

The fact some of you think abused girls are the same as Shamima Begum - who was part of a terrorist regime that tortured and killed people, that she believed in. The only reason she wasn't out killing her self if because she's a woman and it's not her role.

And you think that is the same as girls being taken advantage of? That she honestly deserves the same treatment and sympathy as them?

@houseonthehill

But using her family's perspective on the matter as to why she should be forgiven is a bit dumb. Parents will almost always support their kids even if they commit the most heinous crimes because they're not able to think objectively regarding her own kids

Maybe we should ask the parents of the Manchester bombing victims, and murdered Syrians what they think should happen to her. I wonder if their views would align

I don't even think you need to be a parent to understand that her culpability and trauma need assessing properly. Just an ordinary human.

I wonder what Sammy Woodward and the other thousands of women and girls who were groomed and raped and abused as children would feel about their trauma being used to defend or as a comparison to a girl who willingly left to join and participate in a cult which inflicted rape and murder on other human beings?

I’m sure they’d be as repulsed as I am.