AIBU to think Shamima is not coming across well?

[HurryUpAndWait23]

I do really feel for her, she was an exploited child and went through what appeared to be repeatedly brutal experiences.

But whenever she talks, the attitude and "the world owes me" way in which she speaks is not helping her cause at all.

@Blackberrycream you need to be able to back up what you say. That is a pretty basic concept.

And I think what Iggly is finding darkly humorous is people tying themselves up in knots trying to differentiate between white girls and brown Muslim girls.

I'm delighted she is, to all intents and purposes, stateless. I hope Bangladesh stick to their guns too.

She's not wanted anywhere and that's exactly as it should be for her and for anyone else who emulates her.

She can stay in a camp, she's fed and clothed at someone's expense-I bet her next of kin aren't coughing up and she has absolutely no moral right to ask for anything else.

She will though because her brass neck is polished with the soft soap of those who are easily fooled and she is emboldened by these gulls.

@SailYourShips

I'm delighted she is, to all intents and purposes, stateless. I hope Bangladesh stick to their guns too.

She's not wanted anywhere and that's exactly as it should be for her and for anyone else who emulates her.

She can stay in a camp, she's fed and clothed at someone's expense-I bet her next of kin aren't coughing up and she has absolutely no moral right to ask for anything else.

She will though because her brass neck is polished with the soft soap of those who are easily fooled and she is emboldened by these gulls.

Fed and clothed by people/charities who can ill afford it. How is it fair to them?

As a country we created her

No we didn’t. Isis created her. There are hundreds of thousands of British Muslim women who didn’t rush off to succour Isis.

There are lots of 15-16 year old girls who act out and push boundaries and do stupid things but stay back from the brink, either by luck or design.

There are also terrible cases where troubled young girls are easy prey to groomers and those who would lead them into danger. I believe that Shamiima was exactly that: a groomed child, trafficked for nefarious purposes. She doesn't have adult attitudes now because her chance to grow up was taken from her too soon and she was thrust into a terrible war by adults with no moral compass.
I think she will probably always be a danger to those in the UK. I also think that we have a responsibility to try and rehabilitate/save her: she was a groomed child, now a young woman asking for help. We don't have to like or empathise with her, but we should be doing the right thing.

I watched the video tonight on the news. Her behaviour was very odd. When she kept saying “you British” or something like that again seemed odd coming from someone who supposedly is British. I don’t think she sees herself as British anymore. It didn’t feel real. it felt like a school kids lousy drama video.

I really don’t care about ISIS, but I do think this idea we can post whatever we like on a forum and present it as fact as long as it’s what the majority want to hear, and then get outraged when asked for a source is extremely dangerous.

Not outraged in the slightest but you do seem to skim read. I gave you the name of the organisation and the title of the report and you were still demanding links as if typing it into Google was too much trouble. I recounted a report I had heard in an interview, it could have been on the news or in a documentary, it was a few years ago now, I'd be very happy if I was able to remember any detail which would help me find it but I can't. I can remember plenty of other accounts of worse or equally horrific behaviour, what motive would I have for making it up? Like I said I don't think anything I say could make ISIS look worse than they actually are. There is a certain irony in asserting posts on an internet forum are dangerous given we are discuss ISIS.

@Fraine.

They choose to do it. They make a choice. A bad choice in my sights but one they are entitled to make.

If they can't afford to do it, then they can stop. No-one is asking them to do so.

I might allow her parents to send money for her upkeep but again, if they don't want to they don't have to.

No state is responsible for her. You know, that's what stateless means in this context. It's a great punishment and one that could be more widely used.

We don't have to like or empathise with her, but we should be doing the right thing.

Sadly decisions are usually made in accordance with a hierarchy - e.g. people dying because the next person was deemed a better candidate for an organ transplant (younger, never smoked, etc). Shamima is right at the bottom of the list of people who deserve to be taken in.

@FOJN

I really don’t care about ISIS, but I do think this idea we can post whatever we like on a forum and present it as fact as long as it’s what the majority want to hear, and then get outraged when asked for a source is extremely dangerous.

Not outraged in the slightest but you do seem to skim read. I gave you the name of the organisation and the title of the report and you were still demanding links as if typing it into Google was too much trouble. I recounted a report I had heard in an interview, it could have been on the news or in a documentary, it was a few years ago now, I'd be very happy if I was able to remember any detail which would help me find it but I can't. I can remember plenty of other accounts of worse or equally horrific behaviour, what motive would I have for making it up? Like I said I don't think anything I say could make ISIS look worse than they actually are. There is a certain irony in asserting posts on an internet forum are dangerous given we are discuss ISIS.

As I said, I think you have to be able to back up what you post. Following your posts, a few people did get outraged that I didn’t believe your say so. I think that is dangerous, in a world of ‘fake news’.

The right thing is to save lives and deterring others from thd same path. Which means not letting her back. Absolutely thr right call. She'll be suing all and sundry for billions.

[quote SailYourShips]@Fraine.

They choose to do it. They make a choice. A bad choice in my sights but one they are entitled to make.

If they can't afford to do it, then they can stop. No-one is asking them to do so.

I might allow her parents to send money for her upkeep but again, if they don't want to they don't have to.

No state is responsible for her. You know, that's what stateless means in this context. It's a great punishment and one that could be more widely used.[/quote]
So you’re saying the charity helping her should let her starve? Freeze? How does that make you any better than ISIS? We don’t even treat serial killers like this in the UK. We give them IVs if they don’t eat.

She’s stateless because the UK know Syria is not in a position to deport her to the UK. The UK are cowardly relying on a legal black hole. There’s nothing heroic or admirable about what we’re doing.

You're absolutely misguided @Fraine.

You’re absolutely avoiding the issue.

For Fraine
docs.house.gov/meetings/FA/FA16/20151209/104273/HHRG-114-FA16-Wstate-IsmailM-20151209.pdf

7, 8 and 9 year old girls raped to death
Plus mother’s fed the flesh of their murdered babies

@Comedycook

Hearing her speak about her children dying is really odd...she comes across as totally detached. I cannot decide whether she is an absolute psychopath or suffering from severe PTSD.

Is there any evidence that these children actually existed and are not simply another tool in her manipulative arsenal?

Who cares about heroic, admirable. Alive and not blown up by domestic terrorists is what I'd rather be. If she comes back to the UK and doesn't like the way she's treated what's to stop her going out in a blaze of glory and taking loads of innocent people with her?

@JudgeJ, I know nothing about the older two, but she was heavily pregnant with her last child when she was found and interviewed by Anthony Lloyd from the Times in 2019, saying she wanted to raise her child in the UK but didn’t regret her past actions, gave birth shortly afterwards, and the group running the refugee camp confirmed her son had died within a few weeks of his birth.

Some very disturbing posts here by @Iggly and @Fraine

Some deeply offensive posts where a girl who took an active part in the rapes and murders of other human beings is being compared to victims of CSE.

Parts of this thread are absolutely disgusting.

I think what we have to be very clear about is that while most armed groups will use rape as a weapon of war very few will explicitly set up human trafficking supply lines, slave markets etc in an organised way with a supporting bureaucracy. They saw themselves as a state, they behaved as a state, sharing resource taking responsibility for utilities etc.

Also I would be a bit careful about making assumptions about what muslims think,. I actually live in the middle east and the country I’m in quite a few of the older lot are very wary of Palestinians (some outright hate them (not so much the younger lot) and some think Assad is right becuase he’s fighting terrorists. Many are quite xenophobic towards muslims of other nationalities etc. There also people with completely opposing views. To be honest, some of it was a total surprise to me and forced me to re-evaluate and not make so many assumptions.

The problem with the whole “what the muslim world thinks” stuff is that it’s totally true that imperialism and recent wars had a deep and lasting impact on middle east but they have their own history too. Seeing the “muslim world” purely through the lens of how they interact with the west is a very narrow view of peoples with their own history, culture, faiths and conflicts that stretch far back.

Plus I come from a heritage where my people have been colonised. Have I taken sex slaves or tried to blow anyone up - have I fuck. It’s one thing to not want military adventurous from the west its quite another thing to act like it makes buying and raping other human beings an actual slave trade (like the one we criticise the west for) not their fault.

Theres a lot of “if we hadn’t done this they wouldn’t have done this” brown people do have actual agency y’know. Loads of practices such as FGM, sutti, purdah, slavery were around a long time before the west arrived.

@idontlikealdi

At 15 you have a sense of moral compass. I do t buy why what she's saying now.

If a 15 year old child had been groomed into prostitution, would you be saying, well she knew what she was doing so I have no sympathy for her?

No, you wouldn’t. She was a child and has suffered horrific abuse at the hands of her groomers. Have a little compassion.

@ODFOx

There are lots of 15-16 year old girls who act out and push boundaries and do stupid things but stay back from the brink, either by luck or design. There are also terrible cases where troubled young girls are easy prey to groomers and those who would lead them into danger. I believe that Shamiima was exactly that: a groomed child, trafficked for nefarious purposes. She doesn't have adult attitudes now because her chance to grow up was taken from her too soon and she was thrust into a terrible war by adults with no moral compass. I think she will probably always be a danger to those in the UK. I also think that we have a responsibility to try and rehabilitate/save her: she was a groomed child, now a young woman asking for help. We don't have to like or empathise with her, but we should be doing the right thing.

Her chance to grow up was not taken from her. She chose to leave a safe country and her education to go to a war torn country to fight against her own country. It was her choice. She surely knew that she wouldn’t be living like an adolescent girl out there doing what her contemporaries in the UK were doing? 15 is old enough to understand that.

There’s a lot of talk about the horrific abuse she suffered at the hands of ISIS. What was that abuse exactly? It seems to be she was the perpetrator of abuse, not the recipient. Her marriage seems to have been one she welcomed. She did not regret her actions when she first arrived in the camp. She has now changed her tune because all her bridges are burnt, that’s all.

i don't care as I don't think she should be tried and judged in the court of public opinion. I don't know what she did or didn't do. But she is entitled to a fair trial, with all the protections we would give any one else who was 15 years old a the time of the crime.
She is NOT Bangladeshi and the stripping of citizenship and rendering stateless is against international law. She is a problem of our own making, not Bangladesh's.
British citizens, including 2nd generation immigrants and dual citizens, commit crimes, sometimes serious, and they are punished accordingly with a fair (as possible) trial or sentencing even if they were adults when they committed them. I don't understand why this person has been singled out. Even if her crimes have been serious, she was still a minor when she committed them (i'm not defending the seriousness of what she did!) and lifetime stripping of citizenship outside the judicial system is not usually in the repertoire of punishments meted out to other criminals

How can we judge what we would say or do when we are living in fear for not only our own life but our child’s too

Wouldn’t you lie if you not felt but knew your life and your child’s life depended on it

She couldn’t be outspoken at first I’m sure after losing two children and struggling with a third child alone in terrible and frightening living conditions just getting to live another day was all she could think of