AIBU to think Shamima is not coming across well?

[HurryUpAndWait23]

I do really feel for her, she was an exploited child and went through what appeared to be repeatedly brutal experiences.

But whenever she talks, the attitude and "the world owes me" way in which she speaks is not helping her cause at all.

@FOJN

It's the height of arrogance and passing our responsibilities to expect Syria to deal with her.

One could equally argue its the the height of arrogance to deny Syria the right to deal with her as they see fit.

Did you think the UK should repatriate and deal with Gary Glitter when he committed child sex offences abroad or did you think Vietnam were well within their rights to hold a trial and convict him on the basis of the evidence they had collected about crimes he had committed in their country.

Not quite the same thing. If Syria want to deal with her, I don't believe anyone is going to stop them. But we have revoked her citizenship - thus declaring to the world that she might be a problem we created but we have no intention of dealing with. We expect another country to do that. We didn't revoke Gary Glitter's citizenship.

She joined before the media hype. It could be argued a lot of the media hype was because of her and foreign people like her who used social media to draw naive muslims in.

I don't think this is accurate. By her own admission Shamima Begum was actively seeking to connect with ISIS supporters and fighters to get them to help her with her journey to Turkey and onwards even after there had been many news reports about the barbaric acts carried out by ISIS.

Throughout late 2014 and 2015 ISIS released many videos of hostages bring beheaded and other atrocities. Yazidi men, women and children were already bring slaughtered. In February 2015 they released a video of Jordanian pilot, Moath al-Kasasbeh, being burnt alive inside a cage. All of this was known and reported before Shamima Begum left the UK.

Comes across as very insincere IMHO,

To the people saying everyone knew Isis was bad, at 15 she would know what she was doing but she still went...

All children know paedophiles are bad that doesn't stop them being groomed by them. The usual response in this situation is not to blame the child for allowing themselves to be manipulated into being abused.

She wouldn't have been sat doing her homework one day and got an email saying come and join our evil terrorist organisation so she grabbed her passport and hopped on the plane. It doesn't happen like that. Radicalisation is a form of grooming and would have gradually taken place over a period of time.

That being said, she is not that 15 year old anymore. The problem with this kind of situation is the radicalisation that has occured is very very hard to reverse. Her comments regarding the Manchester bombings are very telling. The things we would see as horrors that she witnessed and took part in may have traumatised her but again on the flip side, due to the indoctrination and brainwashing, she may still fully believe it was justified. The damage has already been done and realistically there is no going back on it.

Besides the rights and wrongs of this case the fact is that she is a British citizen. She should be tried and if found guilty serve time here. We deport other nationals who have lived here nearly all their lives who have commit a crime as 'it's not our problem'. You cant have it both ways.

Douglas is hard to disagree with on this.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/britain-is-not-to-blame-for-shamima-begum-s-radicalisation/amp?twitterrimpression=true

I believe she was groomed

I don't know if she genuinely renounces ISIS and terrorism - but presumably her veracity could be tested by lie detector tests

If she passes those, she could potentially be an asset to counter terrorism?

She was groomed by unscrupulous people That is very sad indeed.

But those same unscrupulous people would not hesitate once more to use her to their own evil ends. I am presuming that the powers-that-be have fears in this regard.

@MilkywayMonarch22

Children may well understand right from wrong at 15, but they can also be incredible vulnerable/stupid/naive! Children also often have no forethought/foresight to the implications of their behaviour even at 15/16!

Not saying I think she hasn't done something awful, but she was a child who has suffered extreme abuse.

No, she wasn't a child who suffered extreme abuse, she was a teenager who inflicted extreme abuse on innocent victims, and apparently has no remorse for her actions.

I wonder how much of the online grooming was found by the UK authorities when she first went?

There are different possible responses to the atrocities @FOJN describes.

• wow, great to see that beheading - can I have a go?

• or a child being coaxed that’s she’s heard of fake news, right? That didn’t happen. It’s all western propaganda

• or it did happen, but wasn’t ISIS - the west say it’s ISIS but: propaganda

• it did happen, but let me tell you why… it’s very rare and that person done xyz and actually we’re fighting against the people that keep doing zyx

I mean… we have grown adults who think the Covid vaccine is population control, or Bill Gates putting a microchip in us all! Not one or two adults, a fuckton of them. Partners of people here on MN despairing of partners believing conspiracy shit.

I’d be really interested to know what was said about the atrocities during radicalisation.

Mumsnet: "My 16 year old wants to go to Leeds Festival and I'm not sure if I should let her, she's easily led astray and not very worldly wise etc etc, will she be okay?"

Also mumsnet: "This young woman who was groomed as a child, was a child bride, and had horrific, traumatic things happen to her in the hands of a terrorist group which radicalises fully grown men never mind children is clearly a criminal mastermind with nobody having any sway over her whatsoever, deport her immediately"

*If Syria want to deal with her, I don't believe anyone is going to stop them. But we have revoked her citizenship - thus declaring to the world that she might be a problem we created but we have no intention of dealing with."

The Kurds in Syria are dealing with her, she is detained with the intention of handing her over to the Syrian government.

Shamima may have been on British soil when she was radicalised but the people who radicalised her were not. It was reported at the time she left that she had actively sought out ISIS supporters to help facilitate her journey to Syria. It wasn't a case of her receiving a random email asking if she fancied life as an ISIS bride.

There is provision within national conventions about statelessness which permit governments to revoke citizenship (leaving someone stateless) in a limited number of circumstances, terrorism is one of them.

I'm so torn on this. She was radicalised (and I agree radicalisation is a form of grooming) as a child. 15 is a child. But yes, that is over the age of criminal responsibility. And she committed crimes. If she came back to the UK, would she be a threat? I don't know. I think people wouldn't stand for her coming back, though.

I actually agree that if she genuinely understood what had happened to her/what she had done, she would be an asset in understanding radicalisation. I think if she could demonstrate that genuine growth and remorse, that would be her only chance of getting her citizenship back. I don't know if she's capable of that.

Empathy or not she is our responsibility and not Bangladesh’s.

So much of the attitude towards her, both the hard-nosed and the gleeful, is so shot-through with racism and misogyny that it makes me nauseous. I can't see what the dreadful fear is of bringing her back and having her face a court.

@Sleeplessem

White people sort it out, how ignorant some of these comments are that the colour of her skin has nothing to do with how she’s been treated in the media and the resulting decision to strip her of citizenship, it has everything to do with it! The fact you can’t see it is because of your own privilege. There are people on this thread who grew up on BAME households literally stating how they’ve been othered their entire life and its just being dismissed as bollocks because it doesn’t fit in with a white crafted version of life on britain. Come on. This is part of the overall sentiment of feeling like they didn’t belong that let girls and boys be groomed in the first place.

funny how my mixed race daughter has spent the last 18 months fighting to keep people alive as a critical care nurse regardless of religious beliefs, skin tone, gender, age, sexual orientation. Her family fully integrate with their neighbours and work colleagues. Even more so my younger DD HOY also taught SB and she has not felt the need to remove herself from the country with the sole intent to inflict pain and suffering for a cause. Look towards the failings of the immediate community for being restrictive rather than the colour of peoples skins

I don't really understand people saying she was a victim of grooming, she sought out extreme material online and actively contacted ISIS supporters to get their assistance to go to Syria. The victims of grooming in Rotherham were groomed to be victims, not perpetrators.

A better analogy would be a teenage boy who starts watching porn online, gradually watching more and more extreme things, finds them exciting and goes on to rape and murder a girl.
Do we feel sympathy? Was he groomed?

I was about her age when the twin towers fell and I knew it was wrong and had empathy for the innocent lives lost. She knew what she wanted and she's got it. I see no reason why someone like her, with an attitude like hers, should be let back as all she's going to do is romanticise her time in Syria and strive to do the same again with tragic consequences for the UK. She's not ours. She lost the right to be British.

@houseonthehill

So much of the attitude towards her, both the hard-nosed and the gleeful, is so shot-through with racism and misogyny that it makes me nauseous. I can't see what the dreadful fear is of bringing her back and having her face a court.

I don’t see any racism or misogyny. If she goes to trial here, what will she be charged with? What evidence will be available? How will witnesses be called? I can’t see that a trial in the British courts is even possible for crimes committed in Syria. I wish we’d make as much fuss about Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe.

There have men that went fought came back went prison and now walking free.( don’t ask me for names but talked about it today on radio so is true) She’s been in camps for longer than some spent in jail. If we all treated them all same fair enough but she has been singled out especially. I’d bring her back, send jail if convicted of whatever they want change her with THEN let her help stop this happening to anyone else. Least make something positive out of the whole sorry affair.

What’s other option let her rot in Syria for rest of her life?

Just seen her on the news, she came across terribly.
No acknowledgement for her part in anything. Just a dig at johnson and setting herself up as someone who can help the .
All dressed up to look "normal "
Smoke and mirrors.

Lost the word government

If we all treated them all same fair enough but she has been singled out especially.

I agree we should treat people equally but she hasn't been singled out she is simply receiving more media attention. Approximately 150 British citizens have had their passports revoked since 2010, the majority for terrorism. There have been a few other high profile cases but most don't get mentioned in the news.

I think the government position has hardened in recent years because some of those who made it back to the UK before citizenship was revoked have proved to be an ongoing security risk and there is public outrage at the short sentences they have received. It would have been difficult to charge and convict them for more serious crimes owing to difficulty in gathering evidence, as already mentioned on this thread.

I don't think she's very good at explaining herself.

It doesn’t matter now that she was groomed at 15. Rosemary West was abused as a child and while that may explain It doesn’t absolve.

The stripping of her citizenship has been deemed lawful. So that’s it. The absolute danger she poses to the U.K. is huge. Even if not personally, as a figurehead for wannabe terrorists.

The U.K. found an “out” in that anyone who can apply for citizenship elsewhere can be stripped of their U.K. one. That’s it. Done