AIBU to think Shamima is not coming across well?

[HurryUpAndWait23]

I do really feel for her, she was an exploited child and went through what appeared to be repeatedly brutal experiences.

But whenever she talks, the attitude and "the world owes me" way in which she speaks is not helping her cause at all.

@Sleeplessem

There’s no excuses to be made for her, many others have grown up in exactly the same environment and not joined a radical organisation BUT she was groomed as a child. Many of the same tactics that recruiters for ISIs used are the same as we see in other types of child grooming. She’s just not a good enough Victim which is why the public is happy for her to rot out there. Her poor children though- they didn’t deserve this and I can’t help but wonder, if her baby was white would he still have been left out there to die?

But she didn’t want to come home when the first child died. Isis was still in charge so she was happy. She didn’t want to come home when the second child died as isis was still in charge and she was happy. Then isis falls and she is pregnant with a third child and wants to come home. I pity the lost children but it is not the uks fault they died. The blame can only lie at SB feet for their short tragic lives.

@Blossomtoes

if her baby was white would he still have been left out there to die?

Her kids’ father was white. He was a Dutch citizen.

Not going to get into race politics on this thread but he was half (British) Bangladeshi and half Dutch… so not white and most certainly wouldn’t benefit from white privilege.

Obviously SB is ultimately responsible for the fate of her children, but there was a moral responsibility out government had for that child who was also a UK citizen, whatever you think of his mother, he deserved better. We could and should have done more to ensure his safety.

@Proudboomer

Skin tone has fuck all to do with it. When was the last time you saw a MN thread about Jack Letts being stripped of his citizenship and we are all a bunch of nasties for not letting home?

When was the last time GMB decided to interview him?

I think it’s more sexism than racism - we are far more shocked that a young woman should be drawn to a violent woman-hating organisation than a man.

But also her story is more “interesting”.
She ran away from home and school at 15, having to “sneak” out of the country. She was a child. I don’t mean in a sense of understanding what you’re doing - simply, at 15 she is a child, it’s an age where you can’t leave school, it’s expected that you live at home.

He was 19 - it’s only 4 years, but it’s a big 4 years. He didn’t run away from home, he just got on a plane.

So if you’re a journalist wanting to get paid, a producer looking for viewing figures - who are you going to pick?

She made her bed let her lie in it.
She has no remorse at all .
No doubt she wants nhs, free house, benefits and be a celeb .
Perhaps her husband's country could have her.

The amount of insanely stupid shit I did at 15, I can't judge anyone else who made a mistake.

Even if you don't like her, she was born in the UK, she was a UK citizen and it is very scary if the government feel they can start removing people's citizenships as a punishment for bad behaviour.

If she came back to the UK she could be an incredibly useful tool for anti extremism work.

She is 100% responsible for the deaths of her babies. She was happy to risk their lives and health by giving birth to them in virtually medieval conditions.

In her interview, Begum argued that she could help Boris Johnson in tackling terrorism, using “my own experience” explaining how extremists “persuade people to do what they do”. She added: “I think I could very much help you in your fight against terrorism, because you clearly don’t know what you’re doing.”

This reported in the Guardian, made me laugh. That's right, we are going to let a terrorist, who by the very definition wants to overthrow Govts, access to our.... Govt. Interestingly, I think this would be the Isis plan. Pick the most sympathetic looking member of the most sympathetic nation, try to get her back in the country where she can cause the most damage. No one will be monitoring her 24/7, and it would be as easy as her slipping out of the house one day undetected and vanishing underground. Particularly in a burkha or other face covering garment. Never to be seen again. It's exactly what terrorist groups do as a tactic, in other countries. I don't think people realise how many immigrants came here on student visas and disappeared in the system - and how easy it is. OR how many threats are detected and stopped that we know nothing about.

Speaking on the same programme, Javid said any decision to remove a person’s British citizenship was not taken lightly. “It was based on the advice of my department but also our intelligence agencies, and I’m clear that it was absolutely the right decision to protect the British people,” said the cabinet minister, who is now health secretary.

He will have had intelligence to update him on their plans, and her participation. So let's credit our agencies with taking threats very seriously as no one would strip someone of their citizenship without strong evidence that would suggest she is very very dangerous.

@LittleGwyneth

The amount of insanely stupid shit I did at 15, I can't judge anyone else who made a mistake.

Even if you don't like her, she was born in the UK, she was a UK citizen and it is very scary if the government feel they can start removing people's citizenships as a punishment for bad behaviour.

If she came back to the UK she could be an incredibly useful tool for anti extremism work.

Yeah, I did some stupid stuff at 15. But, amazingly, I managed to not marry a terrorist.

The grooming wouldn't have started at 15. More likely 13 - a couple of years to twist her head. We can't be a society that accepts some children are groomed and others aren't, dependant on where they end up.

Yes she has done some terrible things. Yes she joined ISIS. Yes she said horrific things about Manchester. But we as a nation are responsible for her.

There’s a difference between stupid shit and watching beheadings unmoved. A big difference.

@Pieceofpurplesky

The grooming wouldn't have started at 15. More likely 13 - a couple of years to twist her head. We can't be a society that accepts some children are groomed and others aren't, dependant on where they end up.

Yes she has done some terrible things. Yes she joined ISIS. Yes she said horrific things about Manchester. But we as a nation are responsible for her.

No. She is responsible for herself.

We can't be a society that accepts some children are groomed and others aren't, dependant on where they end up

We absolutely can. And we should. She was radicalised.

@peaceanddove I'm glad for you. I got groomed online by random men several times, so I know how easy it is, especially when you're lonely.

I can’t feel sorry for her yet I’ve tried. James Bulgers murderers were also children but the law has decided they knew what they are doing. ISIS was everywhere then. If she was groomed it was by her own religious leaders/religion/parents.

She was groomed and radicalised. Happens far too often in this country (and around the world). She is a British citizen, therefore her crimes need to be tried in a British court of law.

I don't think she had any choice over having babies. I doubt ISIS are into contraception, family planning or women's rights.
She's committed a horrific crime and isn’t very bright. But she's our problem.

The reality is that if we released from our prisons all those with shockingly bad or abusive childhoods, or were subject to grooming of some description - thinking of those who join gangs - our prisons would be empty and our streets far more dangerous.

The reality is we expect people to take personal responsibility at a certain age. If all the 'good' influences they have informing them of right from wrong (like schooling/education, media, community) have not impacted on them, then very little will. Nobody at 15 could be under any illusion that ISIS was a terrorist organisation, it was in the news every hour every day.

I don’t like her. I have very little sympathy with her. I don’t believe half of what she says.

But I do believe she is a British citizen. She may be eligible for Bangladeshi citizenship through her mother but she doesn’t currently hold it and never has.

It’s not comparable with the case of Jack Letts who was a dual British/Canadian national.

If she was able to help the Security Services she would already have done so. Instead she's trying to use it as a bargaining trip.

There are also a lot of British Citizens, still stuck in Afghanistan. They helped us and risked their lives for us. We need to get them back here before any terrorist. They are our priorities surely?

The amount of insanely stupid shit I did at 15, I can't judge anyone else who made a mistake.

I did insanely stupid stuff in my teens and even in my early 20's but I'd have run a fucking mile from anyone advocating bombing and beheading.

@Fraine

A groomed child at that. This idea that brown girls can’t be groomed is very damaging.

What absolute bollocks.

Come on we all know that if she returns to the U.K. it will take years and years for her to go to court. In the meantime we will house her, protect her, educate her, allow her to have more children etc etc. If it ever goes to court by then she will not be sent to prison. Her human rights lawyers will have, by then, spent millions and millions keeping her out of prison.

No I don’t think she should come back because I don’t trust the legal system to punish her properly.

@JasonMomoasgirlfriend

What is grooming? Grooming occurs when someone builds a relationship of trust and an emotional connection with another person so they can manipulate, exploit and abuse them. People who are groomed can be sexually abused, exploited, or trafficked

What is radicalisation?
Radicalisation is the process through which a person comes to support or be involved in extremist ideologies. It can result in a person becoming drawn into terrorism and is a form of harm.

For me, the word "groomed" doesn't sit well with me here. She was radicalised.

Agree with this. Redhanded did an excellent podcast on this, they way isis women in camps terrorise other women really provides an insight into how radicalised some women are (murder etc). I worry that by insisting its completely grooming we are also saying women can’t join these groups voluntarily or actually agree with the ideology. I don’t think we can underestimate how dangerous those who join can be. I’m not making a comment on shamima there just pointing out that if we cast any woman or young girl as 100% a victim or 100% evil then we aren’t being honest.

We accept that evangelical christian women in the USA are likely to be anti-abortion and happy to deny basic rights to other women and we accept its probably a view they have come to due to their faith but we seem to struggle with the idea that shamima may have been an extremist anyway.

I still think she shouldn’t have her british citizenship stripped from her. I don’t want her back at all but we have laws for a reason.

The reason terrorism is the only crime that has many countries resort to stripping citizenship, or the suspension of standard rights, is because of the scale of damage. And the access to large scale ammunition. It's the only criminal ideology that would wipe out entire cities and take down Governments.

It's not as easy as saying, she's a citizen, we need to deal with her. We, the public, have no idea how senior or influential she is in the network. Whether her arrival in the country will activate an underground cell. Whether risking her escaping, will trigger the start of a new Isis chapter in Europe. Or whether our agencies have seen footage of her committing or instigating heinous, psychopathic acts against British intelligence officers we will never know of. And maybe having her in the country at all is too big a risk to thousands of British personnel. All just examples btw.

Point being, the men and women who protect us have better things to do with their time than conspire against democracy, or push a sexist, racist, whatever agenda. They put their lives at risk for crying out loud. There is a lot that happens we will never know, and maybe it's for the best. But human beings, even 15 year olds, can be capable of some vile and evil acts, and when those acts relate to the lives of millions, constitutionally there are exceptions to what rights are allowed to the perpetrators.

@Pieceofpurplesky

She was groomed and radicalised. Happens far too often in this country (and around the world). She is a British citizen, therefore her crimes need to be tried in a British court of law.

That didn’t work for Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, did it?