Ds expected to “help” another pupil with work in class

[LostFrog]

Ds is 9 years old, just started Year 5, first year of new school (middle school system here).

He tells me that when he has finished his own work in class, he is required to help a boy who sits next to him. This happens every single lesson, and he says that the boy is reluctant to work, won’t write anything, gives up quickly and mutters all the time that he doesn’t get it, etc. From asking around, this seems to be the standard on every table in the class - there is one or two pupils who are “learning mentors” who have to teach the less able ones.

Is this a) normal, and b) reasonable? It’s not like ds volunteered for this role. If he has finished, Shouldn’t he be offered an extension task whilst the teacher or TA (there is one, I checked) help the ones who are struggling? I have emailed the teacher to ask them to clarify what’s expected, but has anyone else come across this?

I would definitely not be feeling comfortable with this happening.

When my oldest was in primary other children were expected to help her with her classwork. One in particular. It was not helpful for anyone as my oldest didn't understand the work and it can obviously be frustrating for the child expected to help and to be expected to be able to break things down and essentially help the child needing help to learn.

It had been happening due to the massive reluctance for additional classroom helpers and the obvious issue of not enough funding to provide additional help such as another PSA or even to provide one in the first place.

I don't feel it should be happening as it can and does cause issues between children which is to be expected.

@TatianaBis

The reason schools are adopting this imo is because the classes are too big and there aren’t enough TAs. They give it poncy labels like peer to peer teaching but that’s the bottom line.

Teaching is a skill and it has to be learned and refined over time. Just because a child understands a topic doesn’t mean he will be particularly good at explaining it.

A child should never be made responsible for teaching another child, it’s too big a burden, it could be stressful and upsetting. And of course it takes precious time away from their own learning.

You don’t see private schools doing this - rightly so because the parents of both children would complain. Parents are not paying good money for their child to be taught be another child, or for their child to have to teach another child.

Personally, I’d tackle the school and if that doesn’t work change schools.

Private schools absolutely do use these techniques. Ofsted are looking for such techniques. It has been done poorly in the OP's example but all these posters expressing their disgust at the practice of peers teaching peers are doing so from a place of ignorance. Studies and professional practice consistently show that there are many benefits, and most people with actual knowledge of pedagogy (rather than a lay opinion) understand this.

Totally agree @TatianaBis. I've got clear memories of being bored stiff in some classes having completed the work. I wasn't allowed to pop to the library or - I dunno - bring up a flipping opera on YouTube or start teaching myself Czech. I was firmly expected to sit down and shut up until the teacher told me what else to do. Some teachers let me read (either openly or under the desk) when I'd finished if they didn't have another activity or time to suggest something, that's good too.

If it was due to lack of classroom helpers, wouldn’t it be much easier to fling an easy task at everyone to spare time?

Why do peer learning when they could all just colour in? Who’d know?

Helping the other child IS the extension task.

After a we learn to do something, conveying or teaching that skill to another person consolidates and deepens our learning. The learning is also more likely to embed in the our long term memory when we do this.

I imagine your child's teacher knows this, since they are doing it routinely and with a number of students. In fact, if you email the school I wouldn't be surprised if you're told that this is a whole school policy based on pedagogical research.

Because you know, it's their job to understand how children learn and how to plan lessons...

[quote MrsSebastianstan]@Coronawireless meanwhile here on Earth, most 9yr olds can’t just get up and get on the computer for a random search, get another set of worksheets/books out and start them, go over to their pal who has a different problem to swap, nip out for a book, or start dissecting a mouse or whatever extends them without the teacher saying they can….

The size of the bollocks spouted is Nicki Minaj’s cousins’ friend level….[/quote]
Don’t be ridiculous - they could just bring in a book of their choice of any topic to read. Most schools have libraries.
Anyway apologies for derailing the OP. I agree that peer teaching can be beneficial but not if it’s abused.

Most schools have libraries

No, they don’t. They really don’t.

I was this person in school. Consolidation was fine, when the other student was willing to listen/learn and try - doesn't work so well when they won't (as seems the case for OPs child).

I solved it in the end in two ways: just gave them the right answers or pretended to be struggling myself and sat day dreaming. I considerably prefered secondary where there were streamed classes and appropriate extension work...

It is common and happened to me repeatedly in primary school. Teachers will justify this as being a learning experience in it's own right, this is often an excuse when it is happening constantly and always to a child in the class who also happens to need extra support.

It's ok to use explaining work as a learning exercise sometimes. How you can spot a teacher using it inappropriately is they always be explaining it to someone much less able. Its just a valid to be explaining to an equally able peer, especially as that equally able peer may be better able to challenge the explanation so that both pupils get a lot from the exercise.

Sadly the national floor type learning measures mean that teachers main aim has to be getting the least able up to a minimum standard - closing the gap, if you will. But to "close the gap" requires the least able to make more rapid progress than the most able. Unlikely long term, given the natural aptitude of the more able, and therefore is basically only possible if the more able make relatively poor progress against their own potential.

There are benefits. Including the ones about learning to be kind, and to help others. However as evidenced by many posters here, and like many teaching techniques, when over used or badly used without care and consideration for both children's experience, it can teach boredom, frustration and resistance instead, and turn the more able child wholly off. As seen here, one poster has had to advise her child to pretend to be busy and to give the appearance of not finishing so as her child can avoid this repeatedly unwanted, unrewarding experience which has become an endurance test.

The teacher may have a lot of ideas of what your child is getting out of this, OP. It may be time to talk to them about what your child feels they are getting out of it, and that there's stress and frustration involved which shouldn't be a penalty for more able learners.

Private schools absolutely do use these techniques. Ofsted are looking for such techniques. It has been done poorly in the OP's example but all these posters expressing their disgust at the practice of peers teaching peers are doing so from a place of ignorance. Studies and professional practice consistently show that there are many benefits, and most people with actual knowledge of pedagogy (rather than a lay opinion) understand this.

For your sake I will ignore the cringeworthy attempt at hauteur.

No private school I ever went to, my kids have ever been to or my siblings’ kids or my friends’ kids. As one off once a term it probably wouldn’t kill anyone - but as standard practice - parents would hit the roof.

We’ve all been the classroom, all experienced different teachers and teaching techniques, and we’re all entitled to our own opinions.

Fwiw my mother is retired head teacher with 60 years teaching experience and she is as opposed to this as I am. Nothing to do with teaching experience, simply perspective.

seriously doubt whether it is sensible to assume that children have the skills to teach others adequately.

Do the "teacher" children get some instruction on how to teach, oversight on how they're doing it and feedback at the end to help them improve their teaching skills, leadership skills, "dealing with frustrating people skills?"

Like a quick 10 minutes on:
How to teach the bored, reluctant student
How to teach the resentful student
How to teach the functionally illiterate student any subject that isn't "How to read"
How to teach a non English speaking student a subject that isn't English, in English, when the teacher child cannot speak the student child's language
How to teach the student with undiagnosed dyslexia/ADHD/any other sort of problem that could be holding them back

Or do the 9 year old "teacher" children just get chucked in the deep end beside their non swimming student, and get expected to teach them to swim well enough so neither child drowns before they reach the shallow end?

By explaining a task, you are consolidating your own knowledge and gaining a solid understanding of the topic.

@Coronawireless

And if they lack the ability and motivation (which is part of being intelligent) to self-extend then they really aren’t that bright, they are in the middle, like the other people the teacher is aiming at.

This is a shitty comment to make about children. No, not all bright kids will self extend. Some of them are too shy or worried about being picked on to do anything to call attention to the fact that they're bright.

I was bullied mercilessly at school for being bright. I tried to shrink into myself as much as possible and never say I'd finished work, never shared test results, didn't put my hand up in class.

I can't even describe how amazing it was when I got to uni at Cambridge and realised that I didn't have to pretend any more. It felt like I'd been carrying around a heavy weight and could suddenly put it down.

@TatianaBis

Private schools absolutely do use these techniques. Ofsted are looking for such techniques. It has been done poorly in the OP's example but all these posters expressing their disgust at the practice of peers teaching peers are doing so from a place of ignorance. Studies and professional practice consistently show that there are many benefits, and most people with actual knowledge of pedagogy (rather than a lay opinion) understand this.

For your sake I will ignore the cringeworthy attempt at hauteur.

No private school I ever went to, my kids have ever been to or my siblings’ kids or my friends’ kids. As one off once a term it probably wouldn’t kill anyone - but as standard practice - parents would hit the roof.

We’ve all been the classroom, all experienced different teachers and teaching techniques, and we’re all entitled to our own opinions.

Fwiw my mother is retired head teacher with 60 years teaching experience and she is as opposed to this as I am. Nothing to do with teaching experience, simply perspective.

This. Brava.

It’s not unusual for this to happen. The teacher obviously knows your child is capable of understanding the work and often children explain things in a more general way. This helps the children struggling to get a better grip on the problem.
However if it’s because the teacher is filing her nails and can’t be arsed then there’s a problem

After a we learn to do something, conveying or teaching that skill to another person consolidates and deepens our learning. The learning is also more likely to embed in the our long term memory when we do this.

Not necessarily. It may already be in your long term memory if you know it thoroughly. There are many things that if you already know, teaching someone else won’t help, like times tables or a language or a practical skill.

What consolidates learning is memorisation, review, and using and applying it in different ways.

@powershowerforanhour

seriously doubt whether it is sensible to assume that children have the skills to teach others adequately.

Do the "teacher" children get some instruction on how to teach, oversight on how they're doing it and feedback at the end to help them improve their teaching skills, leadership skills, "dealing with frustrating people skills?"

Like a quick 10 minutes on:
How to teach the bored, reluctant student
How to teach the resentful student
How to teach the functionally illiterate student any subject that isn't "How to read"
How to teach a non English speaking student a subject that isn't English, in English, when the teacher child cannot speak the student child's language
How to teach the student with undiagnosed dyslexia/ADHD/any other sort of problem that could be holding them back

Or do the 9 year old "teacher" children just get chucked in the deep end beside their non swimming student, and get expected to teach them to swim well enough so neither child drowns before they reach the shallow end?

This is bizarre - the kid isn’t an actual teacher. The teacher will have explained the work to everyone, then will put them together to do the task. If one kid doesn’t get it, nobody is blaming the kid who does.

They try this periodically with my 9 year old DS. I complain and then it stops. He doesn't enjoy it, finds it distracting and is there to be taught not teach.

DS is a helpful, earnest little thing and happy to help those that are willing but not manage the learning of those that aren't. And not should he.

@TatianaBis

Private schools absolutely do use these techniques. Ofsted are looking for such techniques. It has been done poorly in the OP's example but all these posters expressing their disgust at the practice of peers teaching peers are doing so from a place of ignorance. Studies and professional practice consistently show that there are many benefits, and most people with actual knowledge of pedagogy (rather than a lay opinion) understand this.

For your sake I will ignore the cringeworthy attempt at hauteur.

No private school I ever went to, my kids have ever been to or my siblings’ kids or my friends’ kids. As one off once a term it probably wouldn’t kill anyone - but as standard practice - parents would hit the roof.

We’ve all been the classroom, all experienced different teachers and teaching techniques, and we’re all entitled to our own opinions.

Fwiw my mother is retired head teacher with 60 years teaching experience and she is as opposed to this as I am. Nothing to do with teaching experience, simply perspective.

It does happen in private schools, of course it does. It’s a studied method for consolidation. We have evidence to show it works. It’s not an opinion if it works or not.

How do you think children in private schools learn in 2021? Rote?

Yes, one of my DC has had to be a helper with a child less able sitting next to him. Fine occasionally, but not all the time. I agree with others on this thread about that. Peer to peer support does have its merits.

@TatianaBis this was what I was thinking - school budgets = cutting back on TA's many have been "let go" so it seems to me that dc who have got behind (probably because they either didn't for whatever reason get support or do work - could be parent working from home/younger siblings they have to care for/no internet or computer or using phone or sharing with parents or other siblings/behind anyway & struggling even before/ et al) would have had this extra help but it is not available

Teaching kindness to a fellow pupil is something that should be encouraged. Peer to peer support surely is a great way to practice this?

If your that fissed send dc with a book and let him.read that when he is finished

It’s a studied method for consolidation. We have evidence to show it works. It’s not an opinion if it works or not.

Of course it’s an opinion - if you actually listened to the posters on the thread roped into it - they are saying it didn’t work for them - or by extension the kids they taught.

How do you think children in private schools learn in 2021? Rote?

Seriously? You think it’s rote or p2p teaching??