Ds expected to “help” another pupil with work in class

[LostFrog]

Ds is 9 years old, just started Year 5, first year of new school (middle school system here).

He tells me that when he has finished his own work in class, he is required to help a boy who sits next to him. This happens every single lesson, and he says that the boy is reluctant to work, won’t write anything, gives up quickly and mutters all the time that he doesn’t get it, etc. From asking around, this seems to be the standard on every table in the class - there is one or two pupils who are “learning mentors” who have to teach the less able ones.

Is this a) normal, and b) reasonable? It’s not like ds volunteered for this role. If he has finished, Shouldn’t he be offered an extension task whilst the teacher or TA (there is one, I checked) help the ones who are struggling? I have emailed the teacher to ask them to clarify what’s expected, but has anyone else come across this?

[a8mint]

Normally , if a kid is struggling then i think this works well and they both get something out of it.In your DS's case though it seems like its less teaching the other kid and more about trying to keep the other child on task, which is a pretty grim situation and will turn the other boy against him.

[Holskey]

@TatianaBis

Private schools absolutely do use these techniques. Ofsted are looking for such techniques. It has been done poorly in the OP's example but all these posters expressing their disgust at the practice of peers teaching peers are doing so from a place of ignorance. Studies and professional practice consistently show that there are many benefits, and most people with actual knowledge of pedagogy (rather than a lay opinion) understand this.

For your sake I will ignore the cringeworthy attempt at hauteur.

No private school I ever went to, my kids have ever been to or my siblings’ kids or my friends’ kids. As one off once a term it probably wouldn’t kill anyone - but as standard practice - parents would hit the roof.

We’ve all been the classroom, all experienced different teachers and teaching techniques, and we’re all entitled to our own opinions.

Fwiw my mother is retired head teacher with 60 years teaching experience and she is as opposed to this as I am. Nothing to do with teaching experience, simply perspective.

"Hauteur" 😂 And what are you ignoring?

But of course you're right: you've been to school, people you know have been to school, and someone you know has even taught at a school! I bow down to your expertise 😂

I agree you're entitled to your opinion. Your lay opinion.

[Pumperthepumper]

@TatianaBis

It’s a studied method for consolidation. We have evidence to show it works. It’s not an opinion if it works or not.

Of course it’s an opinion - if you actually listened to the posters on the thread roped into it - they are saying it didn’t work for them - or by extension the kids they taught.

How do you think children in private schools learn in 2021? Rote?

Seriously? You think it’s rote or p2p teaching??

Yes. I think it’s rote learning - which we know doesn’t result in understanding. Or methods like peer support that we know does.

[peaceanddove]

helping Jaxxon helps you understand how he's using numbers

Well, presumably Jaxxon is using numbers incorrectly so best not to learn anything from him really.

We had this when DD2 was in Yr5, constantly being used as an unpaid TA during maths lessons. She resented it and found it boring having to explain the same stuff several times over. In the end I had to speak to her teacher who told me that 'teaching' others was a useful skill to learn. I pointed out that DD2 didn't want to learn to be a teacher, she wanted to learn how to do more challenging maths. It didn't go down well [shrugs]

I actually think that her Yr5 teacher wasn't that confident at doing more challenging maths with DD2, because soon after DD2 attended some lessons at a neighbouring school to prep for the maths SATs because they had a teacher there happy to teach Level 6 maths (and beyond).

[Pumperthepumper]

@TatianaBis

It’s a studied method for consolidation. We have evidence to show it works. It’s not an opinion if it works or not.

Of course it’s an opinion - if you actually listened to the posters on the thread roped into it - they are saying it didn’t work for them - or by extension the kids they taught.

How do you think children in private schools learn in 2021? Rote?

Seriously? You think it’s rote or p2p teaching??

Missed the first bit - it does work though. The people who say it didn’t work for their kid don’t understand what was happening. They think their kid was drafted in to play teacher, and that’s not correct.

[Pumperthepumper]

@peaceanddove

helping Jaxxon helps you understand how he's using numbers

Well, presumably Jaxxon is using numbers incorrectly so best not to learn anything from him really.

We had this when DD2 was in Yr5, constantly being used as an unpaid TA during maths lessons. She resented it and found it boring having to explain the same stuff several times over. In the end I had to speak to her teacher who told me that 'teaching' others was a useful skill to learn. I pointed out that DD2 didn't want to learn to be a teacher, she wanted to learn how to do more challenging maths. It didn't go down well [shrugs]

I actually think that her Yr5 teacher wasn't that confident at doing more challenging maths with DD2, because soon after DD2 attended some lessons at a neighbouring school to prep for the maths SATs because they had a teacher there happy to teach Level 6 maths (and beyond).

Surely if she wanted to do more challenging maths then learning why people couldn’t do something she found easy would be a good place to start? She could have relearned it (mastery, remember?) which is an incredible skill to learn.

Why couldn’t you learn anything from fake Jaxxon? You might learn he counts in base 8. Do you know how to do that?

[Nellle]

@TatianaBis

After a we learn to do something, conveying or teaching that skill to another person consolidates and deepens our learning. The learning is also more likely to embed in the our long term memory when we do this.

Not necessarily. It may already be in your long term memory if you know it thoroughly. There are many things that if you already know, teaching someone else won’t help, like times tables or a language or a practical skill.

What consolidates learning is memorisation, review, and using and applying it in different ways.

That last bit - I agree and I absolutely think peer teaching requires you to repeat (which helps to memorise), review, use and apply what you've learnt in a new way.

[Brevet1000]

I was used by the teachers in this way at secondary school.
I learnt things very quickly so got put in groups with considerably less able children than myself.
I was expected to teach them e.g. doing group science experiments. Unfortunately they required so much additional explanation / help that I ended up:
(a) not actually understanding or hearing what all of what we were supposed to be doing
(b) not finishing the experiments because they were so slow
(c) doing it on my own and not teaching them because of (b)
(d) still having problems because there was more than one persons' work to do
This went on for months.
Coupled with other children bullying me to answer their classwork and homework, it made school utterly miserable.
Oh and one of my 'pupils' kept not bringing any pens, pencils, paper etc to school so the teacher made me share mine. Everytime the child tried to take my stuff home, so eventually my parents made up a bag of stationary to give the child, which I did.
The next week, all the stuff had gone, child turned up with nothing. Teacher told me to share and I refused.

The solution was to move schools so I could actually learn rather than teach. So although I understand in prescriptive and clearly defined ways, this could be useful, I would be worried about the affect it is having on your child.

[Brevet1000]

*effect

[hibbledibble]

Yanbu. I had this at school, and in reflection it was because the teacher couldn't be bothered to teach either the most or least able. It's easy to 'pair them up' and forget about them.

My daughter also had this at school. While she is very able, she doesn't have the patience to teach another child. I asked gently for it to be changed.

[BFCfairy]

If it everytime that's not great for either child. Both need extra support in different ways so talk to school. Make sure your ds is challenged.

My ds gets the extra challenges if finished early but also takes pride in helping others. Will help with his ability to understand and explain rather than just doing it if that makes sense. He is in y5 also.

Makes me proud too that he wants to help... so it's a balance

[peaceanddove]

Surely if she wanted to do more challenging maths then learning why people couldn’t do something she found easy would be a good place to start? She could have relearned it (mastery, remember?) which is an incredible skill to learn.

Why couldn’t you learn anything from fake Jaxxon? You might learn he counts in base 8. Do you know how to do that?

Oh please, really?

It's been over 30 years since I had to learn any new maths, so I have no idea what Base 8 is, and care even less. However, I'm pretty sure my DD2 would know it, and would know how to do it quickly and correctly - unlike Jaxxon.

My DD2 simply wasn't interested in gaining mastery going over old ground in maths. She wanted to be challenged and forge ahead - making her having to repeatedly explain very simple (to her) mathematical concepts to Jaxxon would have been incredibly frustrating for her. And, it wouldn't have been much fun for poor Jaxxon either, as her teaching method of 'But why can't you do it? It's easy?' wouldn't be especially helpful to him.

It's for precisely this reason that we sent her to grammar school, where she went straight into the top set for maths - so she was allowed and encouraged to work at the pace she was capable of.

[Pumperthepumper]

@peaceanddove

*Surely if she wanted to do more challenging maths then learning why people couldn’t do something she found easy would be a good place to start? She could have relearned it (mastery, remember?) which is an incredible skill to learn.

Why couldn’t you learn anything from fake Jaxxon? You might learn he counts in base 8. Do you know how to do that?*

Oh please, really?

It's been over 30 years since I had to learn any new maths, so I have no idea what Base 8 is, and care even less. However, I'm pretty sure my DD2 would know it, and would know how to do it quickly and correctly - unlike Jaxxon.

My DD2 simply wasn't interested in gaining mastery going over old ground in maths. She wanted to be challenged and forge ahead - making her having to repeatedly explain very simple (to her) mathematical concepts to Jaxxon would have been incredibly frustrating for her. And, it wouldn't have been much fun for poor Jaxxon either, as her teaching method of 'But why can't you do it? It's easy?' wouldn't be especially helpful to him.

It's for precisely this reason that we sent her to grammar school, where she went straight into the top set for maths - so she was allowed and encouraged to work at the pace she was capable of.

It doesn’t seem that she’s particularly well rounded then, if she can’t see that others mind find things difficult.

I had a feeling you wouldn’t know base eight. It’s a really simple concept - maybe your DD could explain it to you?

The ‘pace she was capable of’ would have been enhanced with peer support. Imagine how good she’d be if she’d learned those skills on top of her natural ability. It’s a shame you’re so desperate to hold her back.

And you keep saying she wanted to be challenged, but when given something that challenged her, you didn’t like it.

[willstarttomorrow]

As Ops mentioned there is good reason why this is used in schools and this is based on research. Remember that teachers, like all professionals, are more competent and confident at applying techniques and research depending on their experience. Those of us who work with people are also human and develop our 'toolkit' and confidence over several years. We also adapt and change to new research, policy and bloody senior management whims which usually are a knee jerk reaction to whichever party is in power at the time or government minister wanting to make their mark.

Learning and school is not just about a child meeting educational expectations. Children today will not just leave and have a 'job for life'. They need to be adaptable and also be able engage with others and the world they live in. This is increasingly not something they experience at home as evidenced by some replies on this thread who this situation is totally unreasonable and their children should just be in a bubble.

[peaceanddove]

Pumper she got A* at GCSE and predicted an A at A Level. I don't think she can get that much better, to be fair?

I agree that peer support is important, which is why we wanted her in a grammar school where all the girls in her top set were equally as good at maths as her.

[Pumperthepumper]

@peaceanddove

Pumper she got A* at GCSE and predicted an A at A Level. I don't think she can get that much better, to be fair?

I agree that peer support is important, which is why we wanted her in a grammar school where all the girls in her top set were equally as good at maths as her.

She got exam results. But she clearly doesn’t understand maths enough that she can explain it to someone who doesn’t. That’s a skill she could have learned.

[peaceanddove]

And of course she understands that some children didn't get maths as easily as she did. However, at 10 years old she had no interest in repeatedly explaining how to do it to another child. Why should she?

It wasn't her responsibility to ensure that other children were improving their maths skills.

[Pumperthepumper]

@peaceanddove

And of course she understands that some children didn't get maths as easily as she did. However, at 10 years old she had no interest in repeatedly explaining how to do it to another child. Why should she?

It wasn't her responsibility to ensure that other children were improving their maths skills.

Nobody said it was her responsibility to ensure other children were improving their maths skills.

But she could have learned a different way to look at numbers. She could have learned new communication skills, new vocabulary. Empathy. Pride. Community spirit. These are all skills she could have used as an adult.

[peaceanddove]

She got exam results. But she clearly doesn’t understand maths enough that she can explain it to someone who doesn’t. That’s a skill she could have learned

Oh, I think she understands maths really rather well actually

[Pumperthepumper]

@peaceanddove

She got exam results. But she clearly doesn’t understand maths enough that she can explain it to someone who doesn’t. That’s a skill she could have learned

Oh, I think she understands maths really rather well actually

But not well enough to explain what she’s doing.

[peaceanddove]

No, not when she was 10. But she is now a maths mentor at her school and is actually rather good at it according to her teachers.

[Pumperthepumper]

@peaceanddove

No, not when she was 10. But she is now a maths mentor at her school and is actually rather good at it according to her teachers.

So she is doing peer support? That’s quite the u-turn.

[peaceanddove]

Well, it's often surprising how things can change over a period of 7 years, yes?

Plus, it probably helps she's tutoring other grammar school girls who are already better at maths than roughly 80% of the rest of teenagers around here.

[Pumperthepumper]

@peaceanddove

Well, it's often surprising how things can change over a period of 7 years, yes?

Plus, it probably helps she's tutoring other grammar school girls who are already better at maths than roughly 80% of the rest of teenagers around here.

Well no, because according to your logic she shouldn’t be helping other kids with their maths, she should be being challenged herself. Why waste her time mentoring others instead of extension tasks?

[peaceanddove]

Sorry, that's not worded clearly. I meant that she's tutoring girls who are already in the top 20% based on academic ability.