Ds expected to “help” another pupil with work in class

[LostFrog]

Ds is 9 years old, just started Year 5, first year of new school (middle school system here).

He tells me that when he has finished his own work in class, he is required to help a boy who sits next to him. This happens every single lesson, and he says that the boy is reluctant to work, won’t write anything, gives up quickly and mutters all the time that he doesn’t get it, etc. From asking around, this seems to be the standard on every table in the class - there is one or two pupils who are “learning mentors” who have to teach the less able ones.

Is this a) normal, and b) reasonable? It’s not like ds volunteered for this role. If he has finished, Shouldn’t he be offered an extension task whilst the teacher or TA (there is one, I checked) help the ones who are struggling? I have emailed the teacher to ask them to clarify what’s expected, but has anyone else come across this?

I seriously doubt whether it is sensible to assume that children have the skills to teach others adequately. When I was at school, I was fortunate enough to understand, say, what we were supposed to be doing in maths, but I very much doubt that I could have explained it adequately. I also had no understanding about why people would find something like reading difficult so I fear that if anything I would have undermined the confidence of other kids.

My kids school have mixed attainment teaching, which includes peer coaching. The tables are very carefully and cleverly arranged. Its unusual to get one child who is brilliant at everything, writing, imagination/ story craft, self confidence and social skills, reading, maths, art, music etc, although of course you get the occasional one, the school is really good at making sure the partnerships / groups work and they are mixed each half term. I think its fair to question what is happening but is not necessarily bad in our experience.

I should think it is very demoralising for the poor 'helped' child to have a peer explain the task. A clear message that s/he isn't worth a professional's time and energy and that s/he's falling behind classmates.

Horrible for both children.

Lweji in that case I again implore teachers to pass on that this is the pedagogic thinking.
Normal non teaching parents are bringing up their children to cooperate and trust the teacher's way. They are at a disadvantage in this environment.

I should think it is very demoralising for the poor 'helped' child to have a peer explain the task. A clear message that s/he isn't worth a professional's time and energyandthat s/he's falling behind classmates

I've been both children. In one hand I was ignored. They just stuck my name on the work in the group work as they couldn't he arsed ti explain it to me nor did they bother to listen.

I also had to stay I'm at break akd finish my work as I'd spent so long having to help another child I didn't get a change to finish my work as she was disturbing me every 30 seconds.

I'd live to know what I was supposed to have taken from the situation

Schools do this all the time and you have to watch out for it and pull them up if it is affecting your DC.

I once had a situation where a child was really badly behaved and a massive bully and in the end, the school decided to put him in a class with 5 of his friends/ calming influences around him. The mother joyfully told me this herself. I marched in there the next morning and had my son taken off that list, and was then balled out by the mother when my son wasn't in his class.

My other DS has also come home saying he has been put sat next to a child who had problems in his last year and so has been moved to his form. He is sat next to him in every lesson and the boy refuses to participate in any joint work and my DS ends up doing everything. I've told him to go with it until half term and then tell the teacher it is someone else's turn to sit next to him as it is affecting his work.

We also know of someone whose behaviour is awful and some other poor kid we know has been put next to him in every lesson and he has to stay with him every break and lunchtime and because of the first boy's behaviour none of the other boys go near them. This has been going on for the whole of last year and this poor boy has not had the opportunity to make new friends. It is really, really unfair on him. I don't think his mum knows. If that was my DC, I'd go absolutely ballistic.

Schools do this all the time. They enrol DC in to appease/ babysit/ pacify others and they think nothing of the effect on the other children.

DS should be rewarded, not annoyed, for doing his work ok.

If the other child's dim/malingering/whatever DS can't fix him.

I’m not necessarily a fan of ‘extension work’ when tasks are completed. If a child is completing their work more quickly, then they should be getting more challenging work to start off with, not just MORE work. So I’d question if your child is being stretched and challenged sufficiently if he is always finishing ahead of others.

My DD was very bright and this used to happen, she became great friends with the girl she was helping. I suppose it was a bit different as she was happy to do it and got great pleasure from helping the other girl.

@Lweji

It might improve my explaining skills but not my maths skills.

Well... there you go.

School should be for more than learning maths, or subjects.
Your son is also learning how to deal with frustration, and difficult people. These can be valuable skills.

But, I'd make sure that he isn't made responsible for whatever the other child does, and that he doesn't feel that he will suffer any consequences for whatever the other child does, or doesn't.

Indeed. One of mine was partnered with a child who struggled with the work, another was partnered with a child who had a troubled background and was difficult (to say the least) at times (most days.) One is now a teacher and one is a mental health nurse working with troubled children. They found their vocation at primary school.

(I’m a teacher of this age group)
I think this is reasonable as long as it’s not all the time, and he’s not responsible for the other child’s productivity.

A lot of schools are now adopting a Mastery approach in maths where the aim is for the more able children to explore each topic deeply and widely rather than racing to the next thing as soon as they’ve grasped one topic at a superficial level. It makes a lot of sense because there really is no value in accelerating through the curriculum and trying to do difficult maths with weak foundations. (And I don’t care how clever you say your kid is, if they skim over the building blocks of this subject it WILL come back to haunt them later, though maybe not for some years.)

In theory Mastery is great but it’s not always easy or possible to find suitable extension activities, especially so early in the year when the teacher is still getting to know the kids and no doubt reluctant to overface them. The teacher may be quite new to the Mastery approach and still building up a collection of suitable resources. ‘Teach a peer’ should be one of several types of extension. It’s an easy one for the teacher to implement but some kids find it hard, especially at first. But I think it’s valuable used in moderation and will help your child’s mathematical understanding as well as build other very valuable life skills.

@PaperDolphin

Peer learning is a tried and tested way of consolidating the learning of both children. It deepens the learning of the child doing the teaching, putting it in their long term memory. Lots of research done on it. His teacher is trained in pedagogy to at least a post-graduate level so it's quite safe to assume the same can be said of all strategies they use in the classroom. In the nicest possible way, I would focus on your job and let them focus on theirs.

She is focusing on her job - her job as a mother is to make sure her child is happy and not miserable and strained by doing a thankless task with an unwilling peer. Peer-to-peer learning is fine as an occasional thing with willing children, and this isn’t it.

This happened to my dd. She was asked to sit next to a ds who was struggling and the teacher expected my dd to help him with his work. At first dd was flattered, but as time went on she felt that it was an energy suck. DH and I raised this with the school. They changed the seating arrangements and dd could get on with her own learning.

I had this as a child too, put next to a girl who didn’t speak English because I was the bright one at English. Found concentrating very difficult with the constant interruptions from her and trying to explain things in the middle of lessons so therefore missing the next bit myself.
She was a lovely girl from China, anxious to do well but totally bemused and unable to keep up. I also had the fun of her trailing after me at breaks/lunchtimes as it was obviously hard for her to make friends - and hard for me to see my own friends.
Agree wholeheartedly that ‘see one do one teach one’ is great and can be really helpful, I’m sure I did learn about her culture, English etc but it’s not good when it’s all the time.

If OP’s DC can change seats and do this once a week then that would probably be very positive for him. This sounds too onerous, and the learning objectives unclear, the task ill-defined. I’m sure he’s learning about how not to do delegation….

I never felt this was helpful to my DD. She did not need to consolidate her knowledge of the work, it was way too easy for her. Especially every lesson. She was bored.

@AGreenerShadeofKale

Why not stay home and learn off the internet if self extending is that obvious? I mean who needs teachers, right?😏

Teachers are needed to teach the national curriculum and to help children with aspects of it that they find difficult. Very bright children with no learning disability won’t find most of the curriculum difficult. So in fact yes they could learn at home if their social circumstances permitted it. Most bright children I imagine would still prefer to learn at school because that’s where they make friends, play sports, do drama etc

The reason schools are adopting this imo is because the classes are too big and there aren’t enough TAs. They give it poncy labels like peer to peer teaching but that’s the bottom line.

Teaching is a skill and it has to be learned and refined over time. Just because a child understands a topic doesn’t mean he will be particularly good at explaining it.

A child should never be made responsible for teaching another child, it’s too big a burden, it could be stressful and upsetting. And of course it takes precious time away from their own learning.

You don’t see private schools doing this - rightly so because the parents of both children would complain. Parents are not paying good money for their child to be taught be another child, or for their child to have to teach another child.

Personally, I’d tackle the school and if that doesn’t work change schools.

But most bright children and their parents won’t expect the teacher to divert attention away from the other kids to spend time “extending” them.
The exception is children whose home environment won’t allow them to learn. I would hope a teacher would pick this up but I don’t think that’s what the parents n this thread are complaining about.

A lot of these words sound like jargon (collaborative learning🙄) and a way of lumping on the more able kids 🙄.

We had this with a child with anxiety ok happy to help but ended up massively affecting dd2 she was missing lessons and other activities she enjoyed to sit with this child - daily! Child’s mother was extremely assertive and school were utterly focussed on her and her child’s needs dd2 was collateral. I went politely mental and school immediately backed down and apologised. I feel sorry for the kids with unaware parents - you need to go into bat for your own child in these situations.

Honestly, if your child just sits there and expects someone to hand them something to do instead of moving ahead themselves they are firmly in the middle.

I would tell your child to take their time and never look like have finished earlier. Doesn't help the other child if they sit there for 20min because can’t understand the work then try do all their work in last 5min of the lesson. Imagine doing this in office everyday, get your work done then have to try sort someone else’s out.

A lot of schools are now adopting a Mastery approach in maths where the aim is for the more able children to explore each topic deeply and widely rather than racing to the next thing as soon as they’ve grasped one topic at a superficial level

Students don’t need to teach other children to consolidate their learning. All teachers should consolidate topics before moving on to the next, and regularly review topics already covered. There are many ways of refining and applying knowledge that doesn’t involve teaching another child.

Helping Jaxxon with long division is of no benefit if you already know how to do long division.

But most bright children and their parents won’t expect the teacher to divert attention away from the other kids to spend time “extending” them

Well they should. And if they’re not getting it it’s not the right school for them.

@Coronawireless meanwhile here on Earth, most 9yr olds can’t just get up and get on the computer for a random search, get another set of worksheets/books out and start them, go over to their pal who has a different problem to swap, nip out for a book, or start dissecting a mouse or whatever extends them without the teacher saying they can….

The size of the bollocks spouted is Nicki Minaj’s cousins’ friend level….

@TatianaBis

A lot of schools are now adopting a Mastery approach in maths where the aim is for the more able children to explore each topic deeply and widely rather than racing to the next thing as soon as they’ve grasped one topic at a superficial level

Students don’t need to teach other children to consolidate their learning. All teachers should consolidate topics before moving on to the next, and regularly review topics already covered. There are many ways of refining and applying knowledge that doesn’t involve teaching another child.

Helping Jaxxon with long division is of no benefit if you already know how to do long division.

It is though - helping Jaxxon helps you understand how he uses numbers, which chances are is different to yours. For example: some people add 26 + 37 by making both up to the nearest 10, then subtracting the additions. Some round down. Some add 6+7, then 20 + 30.

That’s mastery in maths - not just getting the answer but understanding all the ways to get to the answer, and understanding what the numbers actually mean. It’s a really brilliant thing, and I’d love to see it adopted in more schools.