Ds expected to “help” another pupil with work in class

[LostFrog]

Ds is 9 years old, just started Year 5, first year of new school (middle school system here).

He tells me that when he has finished his own work in class, he is required to help a boy who sits next to him. This happens every single lesson, and he says that the boy is reluctant to work, won’t write anything, gives up quickly and mutters all the time that he doesn’t get it, etc. From asking around, this seems to be the standard on every table in the class - there is one or two pupils who are “learning mentors” who have to teach the less able ones.

Is this a) normal, and b) reasonable? It’s not like ds volunteered for this role. If he has finished, Shouldn’t he be offered an extension task whilst the teacher or TA (there is one, I checked) help the ones who are struggling? I have emailed the teacher to ask them to clarify what’s expected, but has anyone else come across this?

Thank you

Her confidence is improving now, mercifully

@Pumperthepumper

How much of any of those things do you think OP's nine-year-old child possesses? Because that's who's being told to teach here.

But if he doesn’t have patience, or empathy or subtly or tact, what better way is there for him to learn these skills?

Maybe by being instructed on the importance of them and given a supervised opportunity to develop them without harming others, rather than being flung into a situation where they might be helpful and hoping he spontaneously masters them all by himself, potentially at great cost to another child. Those skills are equally important for all children, not just the academically successful ones, so anything intended to develop them shouldn't be limited to academically successful children while those who are academically slower are excluded, as is the case here.

Let's suppose for the sake of argument that OP's nine-year-old doesn't magically morph into a master teacher who's the epitome of empathy, patience, and tact. Let's suppose he doesn't particularly like the child he's supposed to be helping, and resents being ordered to serve him (and the teacher) in this way. Let's further suppose that resentment is apparent to the other child. None of this would be at all surprising for nine-year-old. How do you think the other child will feel when OP's child says things like "Why are you so stupid?" or "I'm tired of doing this for you! I hate you!"

I'm all for teaching children about empathy, even-handedly. I'm strongly opposed to this hamfisted attempt to prod some children into spontaneously developing empathy while using other, more vulnerable, children as props to be abused as needed in pursuit of that goal. I'm also very sceptical that that's actually what's happening here, because nothing about this activity appears calculated to achieve anything other than a reduced workload for the teacher.

If I were the parent of the lower ability child I would be horrified that the lazy teacher had palmed off the responsibility of teaching my child on a classmate.

*That’s actually laughable - you brought up the league table. You did. Because you wanted to have a go, and it backfired.

When did I say a poster’s DH wasn’t as good at maths as they thought they were? Could you quote that? I’ll wait.

I absolutely did say that about your daughter, and I meant it. If she sat and listened to a teacher and then filled in a worksheet for the entirety of her education - which you said was true - she’s not nearly as good at maths as you think she is.

Slag off Jaxxon as much as you like then. Go ahead. Let’s hear more about how the Jaxxons of the world are holding your daughter back*

I think I will leave this here. You are deliberately mis-reading and misinterpreting my posts to the extent that I don't think you're perhaps entirely rational on here. I'm not the one who has had numerous posts deleted because of their offensive content.

So, I'm slowly backing away from you and the thread without making any sudden moves or any eye contact. Bye.

Its difficult to answer this post, because that’s still fundamentally misunderstanding the basis of peer support.

He’s not teaching anyone. Nobody expects or wants him to morph into a master teacher. He’s not responsible for the other kid learning. He’s explaining what he understands to another kid to consolidate his knowledge. That’s it. He could just as easily consolidate his knowledge to a wall, expect then he’d miss the opportunity to use new vocabulary and all the rest. Again: he’s not supposed to be teaching anyone anything. He’s not a teacher, nobody wants or expects him to be. He’s not teaching. Not a teacher. Not trying to be.

How do you think the other child will feel when OP's child says things like "Why are you so stupid?" or "I'm tired of doing this for you! I hate you!" If he is speaking like this to another member of his class, that’s a classroom management issue. That’s not a failure of peer support, it’s a failure of classroom management.

because nothing about this activity appears calculated to achieve anything other than a reduced workload for the teacher. This is genuinely really funny, a few people have said this. I promise, it’s much, much more work to set up and monitor peer support. Do you know what would massively reduce workload for teachers? Worksheets. And that’s funny, because that’s what so many people on here think is a better idea than peer support!

@Coronawireless, no, bright students do not 'self extend', not in school anyway, without encouragement and facilitation from teachers.

Nor should they be expected to do this on their own. The teacher is there to teach every child, and if unable to do that for whatever reason, they should admit their incompetence and get into some other line of work.

@Pumperthepumper

Its difficult to answer this post, because that’s still fundamentally misunderstanding the basis of peer support.

He’s not teaching anyone. Nobody expects or wants him to morph into a master teacher. He’s not responsible for the other kid learning. He’s explaining what he understands to another kid to consolidate his knowledge. That’s it. He could just as easily consolidate his knowledge to a wall, expect then he’d miss the opportunity to use new vocabulary and all the rest. Again: he’s not supposed to be teaching anyone anything. He’s not a teacher, nobody wants or expects him to be. He’s not teaching. Not a teacher. Not trying to be.

How do you think the other child will feel when OP's child says things like "Why are you so stupid?" or "I'm tired of doing this for you! I hate you!" If he is speaking like this to another member of his class, that’s a classroom management issue. That’s not a failure of peer support, it’s a failure of classroom management.

because nothing about this activity appears calculated to achieve anything other than a reduced workload for the teacher. This is genuinely really funny, a few people have said this. I promise, it’s much, much more work to set up and monitor peer support. Do you know what would massively reduce workload for teachers? Worksheets. And that’s funny, because that’s what so many people on here think is a better idea than peer support!

Sorry, that was to @PurpleOkapi

@Pumperthepumper

How much of any of those things do you think OP's nine-year-old child possesses? Because that's who's being told to teach here.

But if he doesn’t have patience, or empathy or subtly or tact, what better way is there for him to learn these skills?

This is a terrible way for him to learn these skills because he's not getting any instruction or feedback on how to develop them. There is no "winning" in this scenario as the OP has described it for either child.

Simply dropping people in at the deep end is not a great way for most to learn.

@mathanxiety

If I were the parent of the lower ability child I would be horrified that the lazy teacher had palmed off the responsibility of teaching my child on a classmate.

What would you do about it?

@NumberTheory well, obviously he should be. He should be being told that calling someone stupid is not how we speak to each other. I don’t know what you mean about the deep end.

I wouldn't be happy with that arrangement as parent to either child in thid arrangement. It's unfair on them both. The teachers job is to teach, not the pupils and the poor child will never understand subject that's being taught by a fellow pupil

@HeronLanyon

As an occasional it’s an excellent learning aid to teach someone else. It often makes you think about the ‘right answer’ which you may already have arrived at in a different and mind stretching way. So if it’s occasional I’d positively welcome it. If it’s constant then I would question it.

This! I am a teacher and will occasionally use this to help a student master a subject, but will also have extension activities some lessons and puzzles etc other. So I agree it’s a good thing but needs to become one of the additional tasks, not an every lesson task. Hope that makes sense!!

And @PurpleOkapi I should add, in case you missed it earlier in the thread - Jaxxon will also have his chance to demonstrate his knowledge. It might be language, it might be climbing a rope, it might be technology. It’s a two-way street.

@Pumperthepumper, if I were the parent of the lower ability child I would complain to the teacher and demand appropriate professional attention to the teaching of my child. I would question the qualifications of any teacher who thought this arrangement was appropriate.

If I were the OP I would demand an immediate end to what's going on, that my child should be given extension activities, and not put in the position he is in, with his own academic development thwarted and his social bonds with his peers negatively affected.

The brighter DC is soon going to realise that there is no upside to working diligently to finish his work quickly.

[quote mathanxiety]@Pumperthepumper, if I were the parent of the lower ability child I would complain to the teacher and demand appropriate professional attention to the teaching of my child. I would question the qualifications of any teacher who thought this arrangement was appropriate.

If I were the OP I would demand an immediate end to what's going on, that my child should be given extension activities, and not put in the position he is in, with his own academic development thwarted and his social bonds with his peers negatively affected.

The brighter DC is soon going to realise that there is no upside to working diligently to finish his work quickly.
[/quote]
What extension activities would you want?

As people have rightly said in this post, there is a difference between helping another student who is struggling and so gaining skills and knowledge in the process and just exploiting the clever kids. It sounds like your child's school is doing the latter. Your child need to be supported and pushed to achieve their very best.

I hope it's okay for me to post this here, but I wrote a post all about returning to school. I cover every year group from reception to Year 11. There is also a section for parents with SEND children and for those with High achievers and what support is available to them, as well as useful websites.

I hope it helps. theonlychildclub.net/returning-to-school/

@Pumperthepumper

Its difficult to answer this post, because that’s still fundamentally misunderstanding the basis of peer support.

He’s not teaching anyone. Nobody expects or wants him to morph into a master teacher. He’s not responsible for the other kid learning. He’s explaining what he understands to another kid to consolidate his knowledge. That’s it. He could just as easily consolidate his knowledge to a wall, expect then he’d miss the opportunity to use new vocabulary and all the rest. Again: he’s not supposed to be teaching anyone anything. He’s not a teacher, nobody wants or expects him to be. He’s not teaching. Not a teacher. Not trying to be.

How do you think the other child will feel when OP's child says things like "Why are you so stupid?" or "I'm tired of doing this for you! I hate you!" If he is speaking like this to another member of his class, that’s a classroom management issue. That’s not a failure of peer support, it’s a failure of classroom management.

because nothing about this activity appears calculated to achieve anything other than a reduced workload for the teacher. This is genuinely really funny, a few people have said this. I promise, it’s much, much more work to set up and monitor peer support. Do you know what would massively reduce workload for teachers? Worksheets. And that’s funny, because that’s what so many people on here think is a better idea than peer support!

Maybe someone should tell OP's child that that's what he's supposed to be doing, because OP seems to think he's supposed to be teaching the other child and helping him do the work. If someone is given the title of "learning mentor" and told to "help" their classmate, most people would understand that to mean that the purpose of the activity is for their classmates to learn the material, not for them to learn to teach or develop empathy. If the purpose was for OP's child to consolidate his knowledge, then the instructions should have been something like "Tell Johnny about what you learned today," not "help Johnny finish his worksheet." Those are commands to do two very different actions.

Of course it's a classroom management issue. Putting a child in a situation where he's been told to do something he doesn't know how to do, and by rights shouldn't have to do, is just begging for those expressions of frustration. Punishing him for them is more likely to fuel his resentment of the other child than it is to teach him empathy. And even if it worked, that doesn't justify the harm to the other child, who's no doubt aware that he's having more trouble than most, and probably already feels stupid. Everything about that situation is a classroom management issue, starting with its creation.

I don't doubt that a reasonably-constructed attempt to instruct children on teaching and empathy is a huge amount of work. Ordering some children to help others finish their work, with nothing more, isn't. There's no indication here of the sort of monitoring or forethought that would actually make it labor-intensive for the teacher.

I was always made to do this at school and I hated and resented it.

I am teacher and never set this as extension work, it was common practice during my education in the 90s but when I trained as a teacher we were categorically told this was not appropriate as it held back more able children rather than challenging them. I didn’t really need to be told that though, as I had spent most of my school life doing other peoples work for them once I had finished.

This was common practice when I was child 60 years ago. Although I didn't relish having to help John with his reading I did learn from it. I have spent my adult life teaching children like John to read and always have the satisfaction of knowing that John and I both got into grammar school when we were 11.

Peer support is appropriate when it benefits both students.

Sometimes it is useful and sometimes not

@grannyrose that's a lush story! Well done

@GrannyRose15

This was common practice when I was child 60 years ago. Although I didn't relish having to help John with his reading I did learn from it. I have spent my adult life teaching children like John to read and always have the satisfaction of knowing that John and I both got into grammar school when we were 11.

Ahh, that is a lovely story!

This is what happens in primary schools as the children get older. The gap between the most and least able widens considerably. The poor teacher with 30 students juggle tries deal with outliers on both sides of the spectrum by matching them up, to entertain each other while she gets on with the large chunk in the middle.
In the best case the more academically able child learns more deeply by explaining the topic, and learns about helping others. While, the less able child at least gets some peer support.
In the worst case, the most able child feels a responsibility beyond what he can handle or deliver, while not being stretched himself, and the less able child feels humiliated by being singled out and but below another child in front of the class.

Mixed ability classes of 30+ children in junior schools just aren’t reasonable.