Ds expected to “help” another pupil with work in class

[LostFrog]

Ds is 9 years old, just started Year 5, first year of new school (middle school system here).

He tells me that when he has finished his own work in class, he is required to help a boy who sits next to him. This happens every single lesson, and he says that the boy is reluctant to work, won’t write anything, gives up quickly and mutters all the time that he doesn’t get it, etc. From asking around, this seems to be the standard on every table in the class - there is one or two pupils who are “learning mentors” who have to teach the less able ones.

Is this a) normal, and b) reasonable? It’s not like ds volunteered for this role. If he has finished, Shouldn’t he be offered an extension task whilst the teacher or TA (there is one, I checked) help the ones who are struggling? I have emailed the teacher to ask them to clarify what’s expected, but has anyone else come across this?

@peaceanddove

they’re deepening their knowledge while Jaxxon is picking up vocabulary (and his nose).

Except it's highly unlikely that Jaxxon is actually picking up any new vocabulary. All he is hearing are weird words that he doesn't know the meaning of and isn't interested in learning.

I know Jaxxon is invented, Peace, but a lot of your comments are flying a bit close to disablist. There will be a lot of people on here whose kids will be at Fake-Jaxxon’s level so maybe have a think about that before telling everyone that sort of presence is a waste of everyone’s time in a classroom.

Please spare me the ‘oh now I’m getting told off for being disablist against an imaginary kid’ chat, I think it’s fairly obvious that’s not my point.

Or any experience of having learn teaching techniques or child psychology or theories of how children learn

Yep. Or patience or much in the way of empathy or any subtly whatsoever.

@PurpleOkapi

No. You’ve misunderstood what peer collaboration is.

It’s not for the benefit of the one being ‘taught’, it’s not to help the lower ability kids. It’s to help the kid doing the ‘teaching’ - because it helps them consolidate knowledge, it helps them reframe knowledge and it helps them reimagine known concepts. It also has loads of other benefits, like increased vocabulary, communication skills, empathy, community spirit.

If you want to relabel classroom instruction as "collaboration," fine, but that doesn't change the fact that what's being described here is one student being ordered to teach another. If it were truly intended to benefit the student (rather than for the convenience of the teacher), then the teacher would give all students equal opportunities to do it, and would monitor their performance as instructors so that she could give them useful feedback. It's not a coincidence here that 1) none of that is happening, and 2) the "collaboration" involves things that the teacher would have to do herself if she couldn't make the student do it instead.

Just telling a student to achieve an outcome, then paying no attention whatsoever to how they go about it or whether they succeed, isn't teaching them how to do it. At best, it's expecting them to teach themselves. At worst, it's taking advantage of knowledge they're assumed (perhaps incorrectly) to already have, for the benefit of the teacher rather than the student. That would be true if you just handed them a math worksheet consisting of problems they'd never been told how to do, and it's equally true of ordering them to teach others when they've never been instructed on how to do that.

It doesn’t sound like it’s being managed well in the OP’s son’s classroom, no.

But just to be clear, peer collaboration isn’t one kid teaching another. That’s not correct.

YANBU - unfair on your kid who obviously needs to be stretched more. And a bit humiliating for the other kid - having to have his peer explain it to him everytime. Very damaging for his self esteem. No wonder both are frustrated.

Maybe there is a subtle way to do it - ie they have a group exercise to do “together” as a team. But not every time.

There were such high hopes for mastery but the main problem is that it just isn’t taught properly - Singapore invests a lot in teacher development - something that never happened here. It was just another supposed ‘easy fix’ for the generally woeful maths teaching approach in this country.

Where have I said that Jaxxon is a waste of everyone's time in the classroom? God knows, he needs to be in the classroom as much as humanly possible. But it's not another child's responsibility to enhance and encourage his learning.

@peaceanddove

Or any experience of having learn teaching techniques or child psychology or theories of how children learn

Yep. Or patience or much in the way of empathy or any subtly whatsoever.

How much of any of those things do you think OP's nine-year-old child possesses? Because that's who's being told to teach here.

@yodaforpresident

There were such high hopes for mastery but the main problem is that it just isn’t taught properly - Singapore invests a lot in teacher development - something that never happened here. It was just another supposed ‘easy fix’ for the generally woeful maths teaching approach in this country.

I absolutely agree. It always comes back to money, and education always being seen as the poor relation by the government.

Remember a school friend explaining algebra to me while waiting for the train home. She was brilliant. But that was optional help from her. Not enforced in classroom.

This was the case when I was at school 15 years ago. Pretty standard. I think teaching others is good actually and gaining empathy that not everyone finds everything easy.

How much of any of those things do you think OP's nine-year-old child possesses? Because that's who's being told to teach here

Probably virtually none - which is perfectly normal for 9 year olds.

@peaceanddove

Where have I said that Jaxxon is a waste of everyone's time in the classroom? God knows, he needs to be in the classroom as much as humanly possible. But it's not another child's responsibility to enhance and encourage his learning.

You’ve repeatedly said statements, as above that he’s not getting anything out of it because he doesn’t understand, and it’s all weird words to him. It’s not true. I’m just asking you to think of people on here who’s kids are level with Jaxxon, that’s all.

How much of any of those things do you think OP's nine-year-old child possesses? Because that's who's being told to teach here.

But if he doesn’t have patience, or empathy or subtly or tact, what better way is there for him to learn these skills?

And are you going to 'think about' how you have stated that my DD2 or another poster's DH aren't nearly as good at maths as they think they are? Or bluntly telling other poster's that they're wrong? Or the other insults in your posts that MNHQ had to delete?

Because I don't think you actually give a toss about how the pseudo parents of the pseudo Jaxxon's feel. I think your losing your argument on why Singapore is so great at maths (not so much mastery and peer teaching, more the terror of being caned and the 14 hour school days) and so you're now trying for a desperate lunge at the moral high ground in order to score points.

But if he doesn’t have patience, or empathy or subtly or tact, what better way is there for him to learn these skills?

That’s assuming that he is learning them, he may be learning something else you didn’t intend.

The better way would be life experience- these are all attributes that come with age (and training.)

I don’t really see why he should learn these at Jaxxon’s expense.

Argh, Jaxxons plural, and you're not your. Bloody autocorrect.

@peaceanddove

And are you going to 'think about' how you have stated that my DD2 or another poster's DH aren't nearly as good at maths as they think they are? Or bluntly telling other poster's that they're wrong? Or the other insults in your posts that MNHQ had to delete?

Because I don't think you actually give a toss about how the pseudo parents of the pseudo Jaxxon's feel. I think your losing your argument on why Singapore is so great at maths (not so much mastery and peer teaching, more the terror of being caned and the 14 hour school days) and so you're now trying for a desperate lunge at the moral high ground in order to score points.

That’s actually laughable - you brought up the league table. You did. Because you wanted to have a go, and it backfired.

When did I say a poster’s DH wasn’t as good at maths as they thought they were? Could you quote that? I’ll wait.

I absolutely did say that about your daughter, and I meant it. If she sat and listened to a teacher and then filled in a worksheet for the entirety of her education - which you said was true - she’s not nearly as good at maths as you think she is.

Slag off Jaxxon as much as you like then. Go ahead. Let’s hear more about how the Jaxxons of the world are holding your daughter back.

I feel sorry for the poor boy who has to be helped by a fellow pupil rather than by the teacher or TA. It's wholly inappropriate

My dyslexic dd was subjected to 'help' in year 5. The little charmer red penned her spelling errors underlining them several times and threw in some exclamation marks (obviously deeply shocked at her illiteracy)

I spoke to the teacher the next day and was quite forthright (she apologised and the arrangement stopped)

Let’s hear more about how the Jaxxons of the world are holding your daughter back.

What has been said repeatedly is that both sides are being held back.

That Jaxxon needs proper teaching not random parlay from a more accomplished peer who is ‘deepening their knowledge’ at his expense.
And being upset like the boy in the OP who ‘doesn’t get it’.

That’s a demoralising school experience.

@LimitIsUp

I feel sorry for the poor boy who has to be helped by a fellow pupil rather than by the teacher or TA. It's wholly inappropriate

My dyslexic dd was subjected to 'help' in year 5. The little charmer red penned her spelling errors underlining them several times and threw in some exclamation marks (obviously deeply shocked at her illiteracy)

I spoke to the teacher the next day and was quite forthright (she apologised and the arrangement stopped)

Such a good case in point about lack of tact and teacher training.

@LimitIsUp

I feel sorry for the poor boy who has to be helped by a fellow pupil rather than by the teacher or TA. It's wholly inappropriate

My dyslexic dd was subjected to 'help' in year 5. The little charmer red penned her spelling errors underlining them several times and threw in some exclamation marks (obviously deeply shocked at her illiteracy)

I spoke to the teacher the next day and was quite forthright (she apologised and the arrangement stopped)

How old is your daughter now, is she getting better assistance for the dyslexia?

19 now

She went to private school for secondary education (because I had zero confidence in state education for spLD) and was taught in classes of fewer than 15. She got great GCSEs and good (but not stellar) A levels (A,B,C)

Dyslexia has affected her confidence though 🙁

@LimitIsUp

19 now

She went to private school for secondary education (because I had zero confidence in state education for spLD) and was taught in classes of fewer than 15. She got great GCSEs and good (but not stellar) A levels (A,B,C)

That’s great, smaller class sizes are always beneficial. Glad it worked out for her

@LimitIsUp

Dyslexia has affected her confidence though 🙁

Ah that’s less good then. Dyslexia has historically been very poorly handled by schools, although it is getting better. Are there any groups online she can join? That might help, if she can speak to others who understand?