Ds expected to “help” another pupil with work in class

[LostFrog]

Ds is 9 years old, just started Year 5, first year of new school (middle school system here).

He tells me that when he has finished his own work in class, he is required to help a boy who sits next to him. This happens every single lesson, and he says that the boy is reluctant to work, won’t write anything, gives up quickly and mutters all the time that he doesn’t get it, etc. From asking around, this seems to be the standard on every table in the class - there is one or two pupils who are “learning mentors” who have to teach the less able ones.

Is this a) normal, and b) reasonable? It’s not like ds volunteered for this role. If he has finished, Shouldn’t he be offered an extension task whilst the teacher or TA (there is one, I checked) help the ones who are struggling? I have emailed the teacher to ask them to clarify what’s expected, but has anyone else come across this?

No. You are definitely not being unreasonable. This doesn’t seem like a simple classmate helping classmate scenario. Your child is 9 and shouldn’t be dealing with the complex emotions and what seems like learning difficulties of his classmate. That’s not his burden to shoulder. I’d be really pissed off to be honest if my child was expected to do this and it led to them feeling anxious, exasperated and confused.

@Holskey

I don’t think anyone’s expecting you to alter your MO because of MN, but you’re quite happy to dismiss students and ex students on here.

How much have teachers/schools listened to the posters on here with negative experiences of peer support I wonder?

What seems to happen is parent objects, their kid is excused and is replaced with another whose parents don’t complain.

I can absolutely see the benefit of planned peer to peer learning. But I think there also has to be some kind of mutual accountability to the task for it to be worthwhile, which is why it's probably better as a more ococasional and specificially planned exercise than the default way of operating a class.

Having been put in this position far too often at school I really feel for your son, OP.

So, if you agree it's not mine or my Dad's problem then why are you constantly asking me to provide suggestions and solutions to it?

@PurpleOkapi

I wouldn't alter my practice because of the opinion of an anonymous mnetter who went to school decades ago and has decided peer collaboration has no value in general.

The situation being described isn't peer collaboration, or any kind of collaboration. It's the teacher ordering one student who understands the material to teach it to another who doesn't. The only thing they're "collaborating" on is the completion of the second student's worksheet that he was supposed to be doing himself in the first place.

No. You’ve misunderstood what peer collaboration is.

It’s not for the benefit of the one being ‘taught’, it’s not to help the lower ability kids. It’s to help the kid doing the ‘teaching’ - because it helps them consolidate knowledge, it helps them reframe knowledge and it helps them reimagine known concepts. It also has loads of other benefits, like increased vocabulary, communication skills, empathy, community spirit.

@peaceanddove

So, if you agree it's not mine or my Dad's problem then why are you constantly asking me to provide suggestions and solutions to it?

You’re the one who brought up Jaxxon needing 12 hours of school. I was demonstrating that’s not true.

WTAF!! That is lazy teaching right there! If he finishes work with enough time to then tutor () another child then the teacher your be setting your son more work to help challenge him!

So Pumperthepumper how do you feel about corporal punishment and caning still being used in Singapore schools today? Or the fact that Singapore has one of the highest rates of school pupil suicide in the world?

You’re the one who brought up Jaxxon needing 12 hours of school. I was demonstrating that’s not true

Well, God knows it sounds like he needs a damn sight more than your average school day.

What the Jaxxons of this world need is almost certainly more small group or one to one support, revisiting concepts, possibly visual aids. What he doesn't need is clever cloggs Dd saying " but WHY don't you understand? it's easy, look I told you before, why can't you remember?"

@peaceanddove

So Pumperthepumper how do you feel about corporal punishment and caning still being used in Singapore schools today? Or the fact that Singapore has one of the highest rates of school pupil suicide in the world?

Thanks for asking! What a civil question!

I’m obviously completely against corporal punishment. And actually, I’m not wild about the Singaporean school system in general, I think they push them too hard. Being the top of the league table is really just ‘learning for the exam’ for grown ups.

But I do also think there’s a lot we can learn from them too. Mastery, obviously (which I’m sure I don’t need to say again is different from maths ‘ability’), but also the importance of education and knowledge, the positives it brings to your life and the pride they take in their education.

Interestingly, would you like to know one of the main differences between Singaporean school kids and British ones? It’s attendance. Britain has one of the worst attendance stats in the world. So obviously that feeds in to lots of other social issues, like poverty, parents, environment - but it’s interesting to think how we can get higher up those world league tables if we can’t even get them in the building.

@traumatisednoodle

What the Jaxxons of this world need is almost certainly more small group or one to one support, revisiting concepts, possibly visual aids. What he doesn't need is clever cloggs Dd saying " but WHY don't you understand? it's easy, look I told you before, why can't you remember?"

All of that, as well as our old friend, peer support.

I think it is inappropriate for a 9 year old to be used as an unpaid teaching assistant on a regular basis.

@traumatisednoodle

What the Jaxxons of this world need is almost certainly more small group or one to one support, revisiting concepts, possibly visual aids. What he doesn't need is clever cloggs Dd saying " but WHY don't you understand? it's easy, look I told you before, why can't you remember?"

Yes, absolutely. Most 10 year olds aren't known for their tact and diplomacy.

I know how you ate feeling, my son also got landed with that roll, he is very good at maths, so seems to get roped into helping friends. I don't know if he does it as a role, or more that anyone on his table, needs a hand they ask my son.
It's does annoy him as, they don't always ask when he has finished. So he goes I am trying to do my work and there's. I did tell him, to get his friends to ask the teacher not him for help.
But in your sons case, it sounds like this child has some learning difficulties. That need to be picked up by a teacher.
I would speak to his teacher and say, what your son has said about this other child, maybe say its putting your child off wanting to go to school, as he doesn't want to tutor this other kid (small white lie,) but it might get them rethinking the idea. It's OK if like my son, someone asks for help, as he can say no, but in your sons situation, he doesn't seem to have a choice.

@traumatisednoodle

What the Jaxxons of this world need is almost certainly more small group or one to one support, revisiting concepts, possibly visual aids. What he doesn't need is clever cloggs Dd saying " but WHY don't you understand? it's easy, look I told you before, why can't you remember?"

Yep.

In all the places peer support is not likely to work is primary school.

But if course it’s all for the benefit of the learning mentor according to some - they’re deepening their knowledge while Jaxxon is picking up vocabulary (and his nose).

Singapore has a G&T programme for children identified as being in the top 1% academically, so even they understand that some children need more from school than mastery.

Maybe once a week would be ok but not all the time.
A misbehaving child isn't your DS's responsibility.

The last time I went back to uni, nearly every class was this bs. Grading each other's work. Lots of group projects. Hated it. It usually ended up with the slackers getting a free ride.

It would be very interesting to see how well Singapore continued to do at maths if suddenly the fear generated by the cane was removed and their school day was reduced to 5.5 hours with no extra tuition.

Yes, absolutely. Most 10 year olds aren't known for their tact and diplomacy.

Or any experience of having learn teaching techniques or child psychology or theories of how children learn.

@peaceanddove

It would be very interesting to see how well Singapore continued to do at maths if suddenly the fear generated by the cane was removed and their school day was reduced to 5.5 hours with no extra tuition.

Do you think they would change their teaching methods?

@yodaforpresident

Singapore has a G&T programme for children identified as being in the top 1% academically, so even they understand that some children need more from school than mastery.

‘Even they’ 😂😂😂

@PurpleOkapi

I wouldn't alter my practice because of the opinion of an anonymous mnetter who went to school decades ago and has decided peer collaboration has no value in general.

The situation being described isn't peer collaboration, or any kind of collaboration. It's the teacher ordering one student who understands the material to teach it to another who doesn't. The only thing they're "collaborating" on is the completion of the second student's worksheet that he was supposed to be doing himself in the first place.

@purpleokapi Agreed. My first comment way back on page 3:

I'm a teacher. Getting students to teach each other is pretty much gold standard if done correctly. Your child's teacher isn't doing it correctly because:
it's always one way;
it's always the same child;
the students aren't engaged or on board;
and it's always the same, boring routine which is too general ("help Ben finish" is a crap instruction)

It's a lazy application of a very valuable and useful concept. And your child's teacher should ensure your ds knows he is not responsible for this other child's work or behaviour!

Since then, there has been a lot of nonsense talked about how children should only be taught by the teacher, private schools wouldn't allow children to teach other (they do!) etc. etc.

they’re deepening their knowledge while Jaxxon is picking up vocabulary (and his nose).

Except it's highly unlikely that Jaxxon is actually picking up any new vocabulary. All he is hearing are weird words that he doesn't know the meaning of and isn't interested in learning.

No. You’ve misunderstood what peer collaboration is.

It’s not for the benefit of the one being ‘taught’, it’s not to help the lower ability kids. It’s to help the kid doing the ‘teaching’ - because it helps them consolidate knowledge, it helps them reframe knowledge and it helps them reimagine known concepts. It also has loads of other benefits, like increased vocabulary, communication skills, empathy, community spirit.

If you want to relabel classroom instruction as "collaboration," fine, but that doesn't change the fact that what's being described here is one student being ordered to teach another. If it were truly intended to benefit the student (rather than for the convenience of the teacher), then the teacher would give all students equal opportunities to do it, and would monitor their performance as instructors so that she could give them useful feedback. It's not a coincidence here that 1) none of that is happening, and 2) the "collaboration" involves things that the teacher would have to do herself if she couldn't make the student do it instead.

Just telling a student to achieve an outcome, then paying no attention whatsoever to how they go about it or whether they succeed, isn't teaching them how to do it. At best, it's expecting them to teach themselves. At worst, it's taking advantage of knowledge they're assumed (perhaps incorrectly) to already have, for the benefit of the teacher rather than the student. That would be true if you just handed them a math worksheet consisting of problems they'd never been told how to do, and it's equally true of ordering them to teach others when they've never been instructed on how to do that.