Ds expected to “help” another pupil with work in class

[LostFrog]

Ds is 9 years old, just started Year 5, first year of new school (middle school system here).

He tells me that when he has finished his own work in class, he is required to help a boy who sits next to him. This happens every single lesson, and he says that the boy is reluctant to work, won’t write anything, gives up quickly and mutters all the time that he doesn’t get it, etc. From asking around, this seems to be the standard on every table in the class - there is one or two pupils who are “learning mentors” who have to teach the less able ones.

Is this a) normal, and b) reasonable? It’s not like ds volunteered for this role. If he has finished, Shouldn’t he be offered an extension task whilst the teacher or TA (there is one, I checked) help the ones who are struggling? I have emailed the teacher to ask them to clarify what’s expected, but has anyone else come across this?

So what's the problem? Nobody wants to help nobody no more! Maybe that other child has sleep apnea I had sleep apnea even as a child and had problems in school and the grade school teachers just thought I was lazy and stupid be willing to help somebody and thank your lucky stars and God that your son is it's blessed to be smart don't be so reluctant to help somebody nobody wants to help nobody know more again maybe there's something wrong with that boy that other student and not just reluctant to do the work or lazy or whatever you don't know! Only the Good Lord knows!

@traumatisednoodle

High aspirations Low behaviour problems I can think of lots of reasons...

My friend's DS has a regular TEFL class at 7.30pm for 10-12 year olds. After his lesson, his pupils move down the corridor to attend further maths lessons. Many pre-teen children are still in the building at 9.30pm. Learning.

Ah @peaceanddove so Britain is rubbish at maths because of peer support, Singapore is brilliant at it but not because of mastery, no, because of long hours because your friend’s DS said so, but you want Britain to be higher up that list, but you don’t want to adopt the practices of Singapore.

You’ll make a fortune when you publish this idea of yours that’s miles better than any of the above, you know. Any wonder you’re not sharing it on here.

This was normal practice even back in the 70s and 80s when I was at school.

I was one of the students who regularly had to help others on my table or sitting at desks on either side of me.

Yeah used to happen when I was at school in the 70's. I was an avid reader and could read and write at 4/5 years old.
I was always asked to sit and listen to other children read because I was way ahead of the books they were using. So there was nothing for me to read.
I hated it
Looking back some of those children probably had a degree of dyslexia, but as a 6 year old I didn't understand that and just remember feeling incredibly frustrated at their lack of reading ability.
I think its ok now and then, but not every lesson, otherwise when does your child get to be stretched and challenged instead of bored and frustrated.

@ThePlantsitter

Attitudes on this thread are really irritating and I'm not even a teacher. Pedagogy is a thing. It's hundreds of years old. It's based on thousands of people's research and practice and observations about how humans learn and has been carefully built up like any other practice. It's not just doing stuff for the convenience of the teacher, it is proven and based on sound theoretical knowledge.

OF COURSE sometimes it's not done properly but that doesn't make the practice of doing it wrong.

All smells a bit 'I've had enough of experts' to me.

Absolutely. As a teacher and a researcher, this is heartening to read. Problem is, because almost everyone has been to school, they think their extremely limited experience qualifies them to argue all kinds of nonsense with authority.

I would flat refuse if I were you, and would escalate it as far as is necessary. Teaching other students is the teacher's job, and she's getting paid for doing it. She shouldn't be permitted to outsource her job to her students.

If there's some kind of organized effort to help all students learn to instruct others, then it should be set up in a way that allows all students equal opportunity to be the one instructing, and she should provide feedback on how well they did at explaining and instructing. That would probably be something like assigning each child a different obscure activity, and then having each of them in turn try to teach the rest of the class how to do that activity while the teacher devotes her full attention to observing their presentation and interactions. Then the teacher would provide feedback to each student about their individual performance. If none of that is happening, her purpose isn't to teach them how to teach - it's to manipulate them into doing her job for her because she'd rather not do it herself.

And to add to my last reply, this is profoundly unfair to the children being instructed by other students. Clearly they're having difficulties with either the material itself, basic academic skills like reading and writing, or behavior and motivation. A nine-year-old classmate is wholly unqualified to properly address any of those things, which means those students aren't getting the help they need.

It’s really interesting to hear teachers be so dismissive of the experience of students.

I’m surprised this is all still rattling on. But there’s very much a theme here.

@Pumperthepumper

I think your deleted posts tell a different story

So do yours if you look back. I don’t report as I don’t offend easy.

because of peer support, Singapore is brilliant at it but not because of mastery, no, because of long hours because your friend’s DS said so, but you want Britain to be higher up that list, but you don’t want to adopt the practices of Singapore

Not just because my friend's DS says so. I thought it was common knowledge that Singapore school children put in far longer school hours and do far more extra curricular tuition than any Western pupils? The agency my friend's DS works for can't keep up with the demand for TEFL and maths tutors.

And where did I say I didn't want to adopt the practices of Singapore? Frankly, if poor Jaxxon wants to attain any kind of ability at maths then he probably would need to spend upwards of 12 hours in a school setting.

[quote TatianaBis]@Pumperthepumper

I think your deleted posts tell a different story

So do yours if you look back. I don’t report as I don’t offend easy.[/quote]
Mine were deleted for quoting yours though, you can see the pattern. I can ask mumsnet to update the deletion message if you like?

Are we done? What are you hoping to get out of this conversation?

@peaceanddove

because of peer support, Singapore is brilliant at it but not because of mastery, no, because of long hours because your friend’s DS said so, but you want Britain to be higher up that list, but you don’t want to adopt the practices of Singapore

Not just because my friend's DS says so. I thought it was common knowledge that Singapore school children put in far longer school hours and do far more extra curricular tuition than any Western pupils? The agency my friend's DS works for can't keep up with the demand for TEFL and maths tutors.

And where did I say I didn't want to adopt the practices of Singapore? Frankly, if poor Jaxxon wants to attain any kind of ability at maths then he probably would need to spend upwards of 12 hours in a school setting.

What do you class as ‘ability in maths’? Jaxxon has ability in maths, he just doesn’t have the same ability as other kids. Jaxxon knows what numbers are, he knows what they look like. He understands his age, for example. He knows his house has a number. He knows a passcode to open a locked phone.

This might be the best of Jaxxon’s ability. It might not be. How do we find out?

So what's the problem? Nobody wants to help nobody no more! Maybe that other child has sleep apnea I had sleep apnea even as a child and had problems in school and the grade school teachers just thought I was lazy and stupid be willing to help somebody and thank your lucky stars and God that your son is it's blessed to be smart don't be so reluctant to help somebody nobody wants to help nobody know more again maybe there's something wrong with that boy that other student and not just reluctant to do the work or lazy or whatever you don't know! Only the Good Lord knows!

The lad Dd was assigned to support certainly had issues (in foster care, both parents were in prison- I can only assume for drug related offences). I did and do have every sympathy for the boy, but honestly I don't think Dd sitting there day after day trying to get this lad to tell the time helped either of them frankly.

The hours that Chinese and Singapore children work are extraordinary. And the degree of discipline maintained in schools - I don’t know how pervasive that is.

They find our general ramshackle free for all classes puzzling.

A Chinese friend, educated there, his children are being educated here, wondered how they learn anything, and came to the conclusion that they don’t learn that much, comparatively.

This might be the best of Jaxxon’s ability. It might not be. How do we find out?

Again, as I said before, that's not my problem and it certainly wasn't my 10 year old DD's problem either.

@TatianaBis

It’s really interesting to hear teachers be so dismissive of the experience of students.

I will listen to MY students' feedback about specific practices and experiences. I wouldn't alter my practice because of the opinion of an anonymous mnetter who went to school decades ago and has decided peer collaboration has no value in general.

Mine were deleted for quoting yours though, you can see the pattern

Nope, some were deleted for being rude, not even to me.

I would suggest to your son to think how he can best use the time given for a task. Perhaps he should write more? Or maybe he needs to go back over his work? I would suggest thinking how he can improve vocabulary choices, add varied punctuation and if it suits figurative language... This is better than asking for extension work which is often just more questions. It also means he'll have less time to encourage another student. If it's maths, explaining method is often useful for consolidation but he could check his answers first.

@TatianaBis

Mine were deleted for quoting yours though, you can see the pattern

Nope, some were deleted for being rude, not even to me.

This is very circular and odd. This is the last time I’ll reply to you.

And let's not forget that caning is still widely used in Singapore schools. Presumably why they don't have much in the way of discipline issues or bad behaviour.

@peaceanddove

This might be the best of Jaxxon’s ability. It might not be. How do we find out?

Again, as I said before, that's not my problem and it certainly wasn't my 10 year old DD's problem either.

No. And at no point did anyone say it was your problem, or your daughters.

Well, thank goodness for that.

I wouldn't alter my practice because of the opinion of an anonymous mnetter who went to school decades ago and has decided peer collaboration has no value in general.

The situation being described isn't peer collaboration, or any kind of collaboration. It's the teacher ordering one student who understands the material to teach it to another who doesn't. The only thing they're "collaborating" on is the completion of the second student's worksheet that he was supposed to be doing himself in the first place.