Page 11 | To wish people would stop saying childless

Moolihooli · 2021-09-13T23:17:14+00:00

Watching loose women today, Katie Piper - not for the first time - used “childless” in reference to women without children. Previously she has also said that she dreads employers who are childless because they lack the empathy for women with child care needs. I wish people would stop using “childless” as a description for people who are not parents.

YeahButYouAreWrong · 15/09/2021 11:05

@Santabunny

I disagree actually OP. I have a friend who is childless due to fertility issues / miscarriage. She is clear she prefers the term childless to childfree, as she feels childfree minimises what is a great loss in her life , and insultingly assumes she has any choice in the matter.

I can see where your friend is coming from. But there will be others who have gone through the same loss who prefer childfree because they don't want people to assume there is great loss in their life because they were unable to have children. There's just no one size fits all with this. People will prefer one or the other for different reasons.

(Said as someone who also suffered many years of fertility issues and miscarriages)

DrSbaitso · 15/09/2021 11:13

I never said it wasn't or that they weren't..

What?

Copy pasted from your earlier posts:

"I think this is a bit of a stretch" (on my point that "childfree" implies an insult towards children).

"There are plenty of things that are advertised as "childfree", like holidays. Are you offended on behalf of all children that some people would prefer to holiday without them around?"

(Clear attempt to imply that "childfree" isn't an insult, and to conflate an objection to the term with an objection to people wanting an adults only holiday.)

"Children grow up into adults, they aren't a demographic in the same sense that men and women are or anything else that doesn't change with time."

I know you're going to leap on the "in the same sense as men and women" as your qualifier. But I'm not buying this, since you were just trying to find a way to make the word "demographic" not apply to kids here, and it does. A demographic that changes is still a demographic and you can still insult it.

At any rate, you did then go on to say that it is negative to children and children are a demographic, so....back to the studio.

YeahButYouAreWrong · 15/09/2021 11:19

Okay @DrSbaitso you clearly don't understand or care to either, what I was trying to say. I won't be going round in circles with you.

I just don't see the point in being offended on behalf of children (who you said yourself won't understand) that some people don't want them. I'm not offended on behalf of my son, the person I love more than anything in this world, that some people would rather be free from children, why would I be? What negative impact does that have on him? Really? Does he care? No. Is he negatively impacted in any way by it? No. So what the big issue is for you I really don't get but you do you. We'll agree to disagree.
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SquirryTheSquirrel · 15/09/2021 12:06

Saying 'it would be a negative for me to have children' isn't the same as saying children are a negative in themselves. It would be a negative for me to own an elephant, but that doesn't mean I dislike elephants or think they are a bad thing.

DrSbaitso · 15/09/2021 12:09

@YeahButYouAreWrong

Okay *@DrSbaitso* you clearly don't understand or care to either, what I was trying to say. I won't be going round in circles with you.

I just don't see the point in being offended on behalf of children (who you said yourself won't understand) that some people don't want them. I'm not offended on behalf of my son, the person I love more than anything in this world, that some people would rather be free from children, why would I be? What negative impact does that have on him? Really? Does he care? No. Is he negatively impacted in any way by it? No. So what the big issue is for you I really don't get but you do you. We'll agree to disagree.
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I'm not disagreeing with you because I don't understand you (what an ego!). I'm disagreeing with you for reasons that I believe I've laid out quite clearly.

You may not be offended on behalf of your child, that's your decision. Personally I dislike the insult to mine. When it comes to feeding negativity about certain demographics, especially vulnerable ones, I don't think it's fine just as long as that demographic isn't aware of it.

CyanideInTheFishPaste · 15/09/2021 12:19

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Santabunny · 15/09/2021 12:21

To me it's not so much the insult to children, but the insult to women who desperately want children but can't have them and do not feel "free" at all.

CyanideInTheFishPaste · 15/09/2021 12:25

@Santabunny

To me it's not so much the insult to children, but the insult to women who desperately want children but can't have them and do not feel "free" at all.

You, a person with children, is offended on behalf of childless/free women that other childless/free women use the term 'childfree'? Maybe stop policing something you know nothing about.

CyanideInTheFishPaste · 15/09/2021 12:26

The arrogance.

MorriseysGladioli · 15/09/2021 12:27

Absolutely crazy the things people get offended about.

PurpleDaisies · 15/09/2021 12:29

@Santabunny

To me it's not so much the insult to children, but the insult to women who desperately want children but can't have them and do not feel "free" at all.

Are you in that situation? Don’t be offended on my behalf. Not being able to have kids is shit. Being called child free instead of childless doesn’t even register.

vivainsomnia · 15/09/2021 12:30

Absolutely crazy the things people get offended about
And 11 pages dissecting every parts of the word! What world do we live in!

MorriseysGladioli · 15/09/2021 12:32

I dunno anymore. I honestly don't!

CounsellorTroi · 15/09/2021 13:02

Personally I dislike the insult to mine.

If people who choose not to have children call themselves childfree, it’ not about you or your children, and it’s a bit precious to think it is. . Insofar as it is about children at all, it’s about purely hypothetical ones, who do not and likely will not ever exist, and cannot therefore be insulted.

DrSbaitso · 15/09/2021 13:14

@CounsellorTroi

Personally I dislike the insult to mine.

If people who choose not to have children call themselves childfree, it’ not about you or your children, and it’s a bit precious to think it is. . Insofar as it is about children at all, it’s about purely hypothetical ones, who do not and likely will not ever exist, and cannot therefore be insulted.

I know it's not about me. I've said over and over that I don't take it as a comment about me. It isn't.

But it is a comment about children. And if you are going to give a loaded suffix to them, that's going to apply to the ones that do exist, because they are the ones on whom the reference is based. If they didn't exist, we wouldn't need a term to communicate what we think of them.

And again, same could be said for all the hypothetical partners of the happily single who will never exist in that status, but people still have reasons why they don't like "womanfree". I know you said you didn't mind it, but I would certainly take a negative connotation from it, even if I had no wish to date the person who used it, and I think many people would. It's certainly telling that despite the number of determinedly single people, the term hasn't caught on with them.

"Free" has connotations. That's precisely why the term was invented.

YeahButYouAreWrong · 15/09/2021 13:15

It's nothing to do with ego, you just haven't said anything which shows you understood what I was saying. Just repeatedly told me I said things I didn't

DrSbaitso · 15/09/2021 13:19

@YeahButYouAreWrong

It's nothing to do with ego, you just haven't said anything which shows you understood what I was saying. Just repeatedly told me I said things I didn't

I've laid my arguments out very clearly. You may not agree with them, but that doesn't mean I didn't express them. Or that the only reason for disagreeing with you must be a lack of understanding.

You're the one who tried to conflate a dislike of the term "childfree" with an objection to adult-only holidays though, so...

DrSbaitso · 15/09/2021 13:22

@YeahButYouAreWrong

It's nothing to do with ego, you just haven't said anything which shows you understood what I was saying. Just repeatedly told me I said things I didn't

And you did say them. I quoted exactly where.

Ffs. When an argument just comes down to "no I didn't" and "you can't disagree unless you misunderstand", what's the point? Although to be fair, when self-contradiction and dishonest conflation form a key part of one's arguments, you can't really complain if someone does misunderstand.

CyanideInTheFishPaste · 15/09/2021 13:23

Diddums

KarenofSparta · 15/09/2021 13:46

@Athinginitself

Currently people use childless when the person wanted children but couldn't for any reason and childfree when they chose not to or are happy with the situation. I'm the former I quite like there being a distinction. There are a lot of horrible assumptions and stupid stereotypes made about women without children but that's going to happen whatever word is used.

Voice of reason right here.

mydogisthebest · 15/09/2021 14:10

Are some people with children really so insecure that they feel the term childfree is some kind of insult on their choices?

I never wanted children. 40 years of happy marriage later me and DH are even more convinced that we made the right decision. We are not childless because we never ever wanted any.

mydogisthebest · 15/09/2021 14:13

A poster said childfree makes is sound like children are a negative thing. Well for some they are even those with children.

I certainly know that some of my friends wish they had never had children because of the negative effect they have had on their lives and marriages

KarenofSparta · 15/09/2021 14:38

@mydogisthebest

A poster said childfree makes is sound like children are a negative thing. Well for some they are even those with children.

I certainly know that some of my friends wish they had never had children because of the negative effect they have had on their lives and marriages

I have honestly never encountered anyone close to me, close enough to be honest anyway, who have had children and totally regretted having them.

It seems to be a very Mumsnet type of phenomenon.

DrSbaitso · 15/09/2021 14:56

Aposter said childfree makes is sound like children are a negative thing. Well for some they are even those with children.

Well yes! I'd say that that's pretty much why the term came into being.

I suppose I have a bit more respect for people who think that way and own the negativity than people who insist it doesn't have any connotations about children themselves but get super defensive about it.

As long as "manfree" and "womanfree" remain generally unacceptable to most, I really can't buy that "childfree" is different. There'll certainly be a reason why only one of those terms caught on.

CyanideInTheFishPaste · 15/09/2021 15:12

Childfree merely means a happy acceptance of one's position. An effort to avoid the ‘childless’ that often evokes pitying or 'oh shit, hope I haven't upset them' looks.

If some parents are are determined to take umbrage at ‘childfree’ and see it as a dreadful slight against their own child, and are determined to make a stranger's preferred descriptor all about themselves and how it makes them feel, well that’s their own little neurosis to deal with.