To wish people would stop saying childless

[Moolihooli]

Watching loose women today, Katie Piper - not for the first time - used “childless” in reference to women without children.

Previously she has also said that she dreads employers who are childless because they lack the empathy for women with child care needs.

I wish people would stop using “childless” as a description for people who are not parents.

@DrSbaitsoyou could say the same about childLESS being negative though. You less something that you aresupposedto / the majority have.

I know some people feel that way, which is why I don't use that term either.

I never felt that way when I was happily without kids by choice. "Fearless" isn't a negative.

I see insult to a particular demographic of society that hasn't done anything to deserve it

And I think this is a bit of a stretch.

Firstly because most children aren't going to look at the phrase childfree and think "oh my goodness I'm so offended" and mainly because we were ALL children once. I'm not offended on behalf of my prior child self because someone else thinks having kids is a burden they'd rather not have.

Children grow up into adults, they aren't a demographic in the same sense that men and women are or anything else that doesn't change with time.

[quote DrSbaitso]**@DrSbaitsoyou could say the same about childLESS being negative though. You less something that you aresupposedto / the majority have.

I know some people feel that way, which is why I don't use that term either.

I never felt that way when I was happily without kids by choice. "Fearless" isn't a negative.[/quote]
I guess this is why it's a bit too personal to have one rule that works for everyone.

@YeahButYouAreWrong

I see insult to a particular demographic of society that hasn't done anything to deserve it

And I think this is a bit of a stretch.

Firstly because most children aren't going to look at the phrase childfree and think "oh my goodness I'm so offended" and mainly because we were ALL children once. I'm not offended on behalf of my prior child self because someone else thinks having kids is a burden they'd rather not have.

Children grow up into adults, they aren't a demographic in the same sense that men and women are or anything else that doesn't change with time.

Most children aren't really aware of the term or any implications of it. They're generally not aware of a lot of things which is why it's up to us to look out for them.

We were indeed all children once, which is why anti-child sentiments in general always strike me as a bit odd, but they persist nonetheless.

Children grow up into adults, they aren't a demographic

Er, they really are. The fact that they will not always be children has nothing to do with the fact that they are a specific demographic with a great many laws to protect them. The idea that you can't insult them as children because they will grow up is the same line of sophistry as "manfree and womanfree are different because single people usually want relationships at some point".

I see insult to a particular demographic of society that hasn't done anything to deserve it

Just because you see something, it doesn't mean it is actually there.

you don't understand X until you have a baby". It's utter codswallop

Of course it isn't, and you know it. No-one knows what it's like to have a baby until they have a baby. That's a fact,

@DrSbaitso

It may be just my reading into it, but "childfree" also always struck me as kind of defensive. It's so contrived.

Maybe some women are defensive, and no wonder...

Why not simply say, ‘without children’? I don’t think either description, ‘childless’ or ‘childfree’, is needed.

I didn’t have DC until I was 40 (I have 2 adopted DDs now), and I don’t recall either description being used about me. I just didn’t have DC.

I also agree with PPs who have said that ‘childfree’ mainly means that my DH and I have left our DDs with a babysitter and are enjoying couple time. That’s what it mainly means in RL. I’ve only ever seen it used to mean ‘childless by choice’ on MN.

In reality, whether I was childless by choice or not wasn’t anyone else’s business unless I told them that we were TTC and then latterly applying to adopt.

Just because you see something, it doesn't mean it is actually there.

Hence my acknowledgement that it's what I see.

But anything suffixed by "free" has certain connotations. That's the entire reason for the invention of the term.

I’ve only ever seen it used to mean ‘childless by choice’ on MN.

It’s been widely used to denote childless by choice for a very long time.

I guess she has a point. I avoid employing women with small kids wherever possible.

Er, they really are

Well you did completely cut off the rest of my sentence in an attempt to make it look ridiculous. If you quote the full thing I said IN THE SAME SENSE as women and men which are things that don't change.

Of course it isn't, and you know it. No-one knows what it's like to have a baby until they have a baby. That's a fact

I said "don't understand X" as in one of the many things people like to tell those without children what they can/can't understand i.e. love, tiredness, selflessness, worry etc... I never said "what it's like to have a baby".

Why not simply say, ‘without children’?

That's what I do. Or "people who don't have children". When it needs to be referred to at all.

There are plenty of things that are advertised as "childfree", like holidays. Are you offended on behalf of all children that some people would prefer to holiday without them around?

Well you did completely cut off the rest of my sentence in an attempt to make it look ridiculous. If you quote the full thing I said IN THE SAME SENSE as women and men which are things that don't change.

I cut it off because it wasn't relevant and I addressed why. A demographic that changes is still a demographic. By your logic, men and women will all die so we can't possibly insult them either.

Children are a demographic, recognised in law (and by anyone who's not trying to make a fatuous point about it) and with corresponding protections and requirements. They are quite clearly a demographic. And it's possible to communicate that one has chosen not to have them, if it really is important that people know that, without a mildly insulting suffix for them.

In reality, whether I was childless by choice or not wasn’t anyone else’s business unless I told them that we were TTC and then latterly applying to adopt.

see i preferred people not assuming i was unable to have kids and they should avoid the topic of kids around me, as i was happily childfree.

@YeahButYouAreWrong

There are plenty of things that are advertised as "childfree", like holidays. Are you offended on behalf of all children that some people would prefer to holiday without them around?

That's marketing which confirms the use of "childfree" as a negative slant to children and is geared towards those who use it.

Personally I'd prefer the term "adults only". There'll be a reason why people don't use it...

I cut it off because it wasn't relevant and I addressed why. A demographic that changes is still a demographic. By your logic, men and women will all die so we can't possibly insult them either

It is relevant. You were suggesting something childfree is the same as saying something is woman free/ man free. I'm saying it is not because children aren't children for their whole life.

In example, the childfree holiday. Children are obviously a demographic, but it's not offensive to not allow them to do certain things. They will be able to do them the same as everyone else when they are no longer children. Saying something is "woman free" is not the same, because a woman will always be a woman.

I didn't say children weren't a demographic 🙄

And it's possible to communicate that one has chosen not to have them, if it really is important that people know that, without a mildly insulting suffix for them.

It's only in your head that it's an insult.

I disagree actually OP. I have a friend who is childless due to fertility issues / miscarriage. She is clear she prefers the term childless to childfree, as she feels childfree minimises what is a great loss in her life , and insultingly assumes she has any choice in the matter.

That's marketing which confirms the use of "childfree" as a negative slant to children and is geared towards those who use it.

It depends which way you look at it. It's negative toward children, who don't really care, and positive for adults who don't want children.

Therefore I can see why someone who can't have children or doesn't want them would prefer the use of childfree (free being a positive word) than childless which sounds much more negative.

But again, it's all too personal to every really come to a solution that suits everyone.

What a load of tosh, one cannot say anything anymore without offending. There are seriously bigger things to worry about.

You were suggesting something childfree is the same as saying something is woman free/ man free. I'm saying it is not because children aren't children for their whole life.

What on earth has that got to do with it? They're children now, they can be insulted for what they are right now. Fat people can be insulted for being fat even if they go on to lose weight.

This is clearly not the reason you don't like the term "womanfree"!

Children areobviouslya demographic

Oh, they are?

it's not offensive to not allow them to do certain things.

We're not talking about them doing certain things, we're talking about using terms that refer to them in the negative.

I'm quite sure you don't actually think it's ok to insult someone for a trait they won't always possess but can't help possessing now. That's just daft.

It's negativetowardchildren, who don't really care

So it is negative towards children? And they are a demographic?

@Santabunny

I disagree actually OP. I have a friend who is childless due to fertility issues / miscarriage. She is clear she prefers the term childless to childfree, as she feels childfree minimises what is a great loss in her life , and insultingly assumes she has any choice in the matter.

While I was still ttc and still raw after failing to do so, I felt it very important for people to know I was childless rather than childfree. 20 years down the line, I don’t want people thinking it’s still an issue for me or that they have to walk on eggs, and find childfree more positive.

@DrSbaitso

It's negativetowardchildren, who don't really care

So it is negative towards children? And they are a demographic?

I never said it wasn't or that they weren't...