To think faith schools should be forced to change their application process?

[storminborehamwood]

Most people accept that you can't discriminate against someone for their religion. So why can faith schools do it when it comes to kids getting a place?

AIBU to think state-funded faith schools should be forced to remove religious criteria from applications?

I know state-funded faith schools get extra funding from religion and that supposedly justifies giving priority to kids with religious ties.

I just can't understand why it's illegal to mark someone down for a job application based on their religion, but it's okay to do it for a school application.

It was a mistake or a coincidence that society changed and a falling away happened at the same time, they achieved the opposite of what they planned

This is a very difficult question. There is obviously a need to change with the times and organised religions are no exception. But where do you draw the line to prevent core beliefs and traditions being eroded until there isn't much left? It takes a lot of (collective, in this case) bravery and clarity of mind to achieve the right balance. I agree that it seems to have made it worse and left (mostly western) society at the mercy of opportunists wanting to take a vacant place in people's minds.

Partly that's why I think it's not appropriate to argue that entry criteria in this case amounts to 'discrimination' as per the OP. There needs to be an element of 'safe space' in religious schools, otherwise, how long will it be before anything is up for challenge by those who wanted to get in 'because little X;s friend goes there' but resent religion and actually wished it gone.

That is again just your experience though. Not a general truth for all children

Yes, I know this.

Also by 'abolished' I meant PPs who said religious schools should be banned

The Rc changes were about increasing global communion and from that perspective were extremely successful indeed.

I mean that was what I got from info supplied and it was clear that was the focus

In the UK at least where I live the RC churches are thriving due to loads of RC people from Eastern European countries and to a lesser extent but still material, parts of Africa.

When I was a child the majority of RC congregation was from Ireland/ Italy.

It's always been a major religion here which is why so many schools.

I mean that was what I got from info supplied and it was clear that was the focus

Yes, maybe I went off on a tangent and started to think more in general about the impact of 'changes' in religions

It's interesting to note that the Catholic school near me are the most foul mouthed disgusting kids as opposed to the state school which seems very well behaved.

Why do you find that "interesting" @Againstmachine?

'This is a very difficult question. There is obviously a need to change with the times and organised religions are no exception. But where do you draw the line to prevent core beliefs and traditions being eroded until there isn't much left? It takes a lot of (collective, in this case) bravery and clarity of mind to achieve the right balance. I agree that it seems to have made it worse and left (mostly western) society at the mercy of opportunists wanting to take a vacant place in people's minds.'

I totally get that. This is why the orthodox church has so many flavours and also in non RC Christianity in England.

Change disagreement schism.

The taking space in the vacant place in minds is interesting. Could you expand on that?

'Partly that's why I think it's not appropriate to argue that entry criteria in this case amounts to 'discrimination' as per the OP. There needs to be an element of 'safe space' in religious schools, otherwise, how long will it be before anything is up for challenge by those who wanted to get in 'because little X;s friend goes there' but resent religion and actually wished it gone.'

I think this is a bit hyperbolic tbh.

CofE is pretty uncontroversial. We are a Christian country officially. That's I think the majority religious schools. Nothing to get excited about. Births weddings deaths still for most across the country just a standard. I've never encountered antipathy towards them.

No parent would apply for schools when their child is a toddler because their friend goes there. If they totally oppose the ethos. If it's a good school maybe but I can't see that anyone would go against all their beliefs to get their child into a school that clearly states it's religious ethos as they all do round here. And then attack them. The school will say erm what go away. The parent would look like a twat and it would be obvious they'd lied to get in. Can't see it happening here anyway.

And I don't get the safe space thing.

For Jewish and Muslim (and other?) schools yes. Is that the ones you mean? I can't see that mainstream branches of Christianity need a safe space surely? Or are you thinking NI or similar areas with sectarian issues?

The taking space in the vacant place in minds is interesting. Could you expand on that?

This is just my opinion, and many will not agree. But I think almost everyone needs a belief system to hold on to in life. When you take away religion (any faith) you are leaving a vacant space for something to take its place (be it a cult, 'worshipping' of an individual, an ideology, literally anything).

Not everything is a valid replacement unfortunately, but the replacement will be done (and will sometimes be detrimental)

I've never encountered antipathy towards them

Except on MN

It's a very sensitive topic for many, understandably. I wish we had the solution.

I'd better go to bed now

mustlovegin

Interesting. You probably didn't read my earlier post on this it's a long thread.

Essentially and having talked a lot with friends I think that having a spiritual urge, for want of a better term. Is for some a part of who they are and for others it isn't. The feeling there must be something, a higher power, a meaning, maybe some kind of life after death.

Some people just feel that and some don't. One particular friend and I have talked a lot about it and we just can't understand having that feeling/ not having it if it's not how we are!

I do think that being raised in a mainstream religion is no bad thing. People then have an exposure to it and may feel comfy with it, switch to one that suits their outlook better etc. If no experience then it's alien. And much harder to access if it's what you want/ need irrespective of the actual faith.

That's no reason to have it in schools though if parents have a faith they will refer to it at home/ pray/ follow certain holidays and practices/ engage in festivals (which are usually upheld by many who are not practicing) and of course go to church.

We are a Christian society and country and it is present all over the place all the time. Sometimes so much that it's just 'normal'.

So yes having exposure to a religion and feeling it's somewhere you are welcome as it were is good.

No need to do it in schools.

And not everyone has that vacant place by any means.

This is a really interesting thread!

I'd like to think more about how people who I dunno. Need/ yearn for/ a kind of meaning, without religion may plug the gap with other things. Maybe a purpose even? That feels right.

Really fascinating point I've got loads of ideas buzzing about!

Sleep well :)

I would be guessing they didn't when my friends were at secondary they also only got rhythm method as contraception and a v strong anti abortion message.

I certainly hope not. I don't want the state to have to pay for homophobic, sexist, anti-scientfic teachings.

mustlovegin

Bonhoeffer spoke about that around WW2. Maybe he could see in a country without immigrants that there was a falling away happening. I think Germany has loads of culturally RC people and due to tebtax system there the church is very rich there. They have gone full James Martin there and the Pope seems ok with it, and he is not ok with the extraordinary mass.

It looks to me like a purity spiral trying to modernise and split off to a modern way has failed and will do so more. They would have been better off going back to how it was and sticking to that and accept a falling away rather than chasing after people who are not genuine.

I heard a Jewish woman who converted to RC and said that the extraordinary mass seemed just right.

"It isn't the purpose of my post, but I personally believe religious and cultural traditions are mainly the responsibility of a child's family to teach, not the state education system."

Either you don't have kids OP or, as a member of the majority faith, are simply too privileged to be able to see past your own nose.

Kids spend more awake time at school than they do at home and it's important for them to see their culture and religion reflected in their teachers and peers. So he doesn't have to feel awkward explaining why he's eating "crackers" in March/April instead of sandwiches or - like I was at primary school - accidentally given pork sausages.

And given that it's CHRISTMAS CHRISTMAS CHRISTMAS on TV, shops and, yes, school from December 1st to 31st me celebrating Chanukah with my DC for 8 days just can't compete. At least a faith school rebalances the scales a little bit.

Your bitterness and privilege is overwhelming.

Oh and for all the smarmy clever clogs going "you should have looked into what 'non denomination' means snigger" I was using it as a loose term meaning "not faith based". It was a regular nursery. Most nurseries aren't faith based. They still spend all of December focused on Christmas and all of March/April focused on Easter.

Which, as I said, is fair enough, I respect I live in a Christian majority country but to then take away my options to be able for my child to experience, in a school community setting, his own faith and culture seems extremely unfair.

My guess is that those left in the church will not accept that God makes mistakes and will not accept that Jesus lied about the lifestyle he recommended as James Martin wants. What will it achieve a group of non genuine people delighted they destroyed it and plunder it for it's earth riches is my guess.

Meanwhile those who had a genuine love for Christ will have to go elsewhere as they even took the extraordinary away from us.

Fatima and the predication of the list of Popes including the last Pope have been in the back of my mind many many years.

Anyway, the guys running the world can take the treasure on earth and lead people astray, people can so as they please they have free will, they aren't taking me with them.

I went to a CofE high school and am a member of another religion. I went there because it was a good school with a good reputation. Majority of my religious education there was focused on Christianity which was fine for me as I got my actual religious education elsewhere. It did me no harm and I wasn't indoctrinated into Christianity at all because I was typically given the option in services to bow out of the properly religious parts of services. I do agree that faith schools have a flawed application process though because I know of so many people who went to school with me who attended church purely so they could get into school and never went again. The majority of the people in my year claimed to be atheists.

Faith schools shouldn't be allowed at all IMO, education should have nothing to do with religion beyond what is taught in secular schools.

I don't mind faith schools. It's the compulsory christianity in non-faith schools that pisses me off.

I went to a faith school (RC) and yes children of that faith got a place ahead of others if a placement request was raised. I remember though that the priest had to ‘sign off’ that you were practicing before you got an automatic place to limit against those who found religion for a couple of weeks.

I don’t see an issue with faith schools and certainly in my area they are much more mixed now - my only criticism is towards parents who send their kids to faith schools then complain about the religious teaching. Kid you not, a relative that is a RC headmistress faces complaints all the time about why they do the nativity at Christmas, why their kids are forced to sit through prayers at assembly, why hymns are taught in choir etc. If you send your kid to a faith school then you need to have respect for that faith and an acceptance that your child will be immersed in the traditions of that religion.

Kid you not, a relative that is a RC head mistress faces complaints all the time about why they do the nativity at Christmas, why their kids are forced to sit through prayers at assembly, why hymns are taught in choir etc

This is what I meant upthread, it's not fair for RC families to have to put up with all this antagonistic attitudes