To think faith schools should be forced to change their application process?

[storminborehamwood]

Most people accept that you can't discriminate against someone for their religion. So why can faith schools do it when it comes to kids getting a place?

AIBU to think state-funded faith schools should be forced to remove religious criteria from applications?

I know state-funded faith schools get extra funding from religion and that supposedly justifies giving priority to kids with religious ties.

I just can't understand why it's illegal to mark someone down for a job application based on their religion, but it's okay to do it for a school application.

You need to think of the word 'religion' in wider terms. Politics, gender issues, climate change, veganism and a host of other topics are being treated as 'religions' nowadays and people are being indoctrinated, yes

No I don't. I know what "religion" means @mustlovegin. It is a specific word. It doesn't mean "belief" in whatever.

@NiceGerbil

My school was maybe 50% Jewish and 30% Asian.

No problems at all.

This is conflating ethnicity with religion. They’re two completely separate things.

Ok then stick with 50% Jewish.

Same point. Was their education inappropriate. Hmm.

Not caught up by the way since last posted massive thread.

Might have s try.

9 pages to read! Did a couple but don't have time for all sorry. Only came back because saw my name on threads I'm on.

So sorry if this is not relevant or anything.

Problems with this conversation when it comes to it as things so different in different areas, naturally all posters are talking of their local area / experiences/ friends experiences etc.

I know from loads of threads that the difference in things like over subscription, proportion of faith schools/ what faiths any faith schools are/ distances / results/ how religious the faith schools actually are/ strictness of entry criteria/ and amount of children getting first second etc choice or no place at all varies enormously.

So I think this will always be at cross purposes which doesn't help.

So sorry if this is not relevant or anything

That ship has wrong since failed.

@SunIsBehindGreySky

Objectors to faith schools also ignore the fact that faith schools are often good because of the faith aspect. DSs school was incredibly strict - lots of throes rules that MN bitch about - but it's one of the reason s it was so good. Take away the faith side and it's not going to be the same.

I am not politically right wing, I do like to listen to people and what the American republicans complaints are - that the Democrats have started to move to the Republican states because they don't actually like living with the reality of their ideology in action, they then try to change the republican states as if somehow things will be better this time, they seem to have zero respect for the fact that Republicans don't want them bringing a failed ideology (in their opinion and I can't blame them saying this as the democrats don't want to live in their Utopia themselves) and ruining the states Republicans are content with.

Which Qanon commentator told you that?

@Just10moreminutesplease

I think it’s crazy that religious schools exist at all.

Who in their right mind would want children divided up by religion instead of learning together?

And yeah, I know plenty on none Christians apply for catholic and CofE schools. But they are still majority Christian and reinforce the idea that Christian is the ‘default’ (and I’m not sure there are very many none Muslim children at Islamic schools or none Jewish children at Jewish schools? Though happy to be corrected if I’m wrong).

Surely if your religion is so important you can just teach your children about it at home?

Because if you are Christian for example and worship at a cofe church, the teachings of Christ should be in your day to day life (and in the day to day school life) of a child. You would prefer your child to be taught by Christian teachers for example, to attend mass or Christian assembly every day. Say prayers 3 times a day at school. Have a Vicar regularly visit the school and a chapel room for your child to go to when they please if needed during the day. You would want god entwined into daily life, not just taught at home or on a Sunday at church!

My area is (and this is about primary for most and both for other points).

Very densely populated

Really lucky to live in an area where the vast majority of schools esp primary are good.

A very high proportion of faith schools of branches of Christian schools locally and branches of Christian and Jewish schools in wider area.

The faith schools in general DO tend to have the faith as a core part of the school ethos. Worship, learning about the religion and what is in the texts as a faith thing (IE on top of re learning about). Lighter or heavier sure. But a core thing. Teachers who are practicing are preferred if possible.

A history of illegal things happening with selection which was in the news a few years back - questions on forms that were not allowed, asking for donations etc.

Some schools being in the news for essentially ignoring national curriculum and teaching religion, girls and boys different things, that sort of stuff. This crops up over and over. I hope it's been addressed now.

From one sect opening their own school when mainstream education officer the years could not meet their practices (no computers, television, news etc). What happened to those children? That community used to be about the place they just... Vanished. How can those children possibly be getting an education in line with national curriculum? What are they being taught? Yes they are out of state system but... It bothers me. I was at school with children from that group to 6th form and I mean who knows? Maybe it's fine? Hope so.

The density of faith schools meaning that for those who are not the right faith/ have ticked the right boxes, it means a school that in this area will be bloody ages to get to when there are multiple schools in walking distance. And children being brought in from further away. I think that walking to school is brilliant. Reducing pollution is great. And this Criss crossing and time to go further is no good for pollution congestion the children etc etc. That's probably less of a big deal for others but it's a really good time to chat etc walking and exercise rather than going in back of car. Some use bus or tube obv but it just feels a silly way of organising things.

So that's where I'm coming from.

Just coming on to remind people to be civil to each other. Thanks, as you were!

NiceGerbil

I think I can understand the way you look at the situation. You see a school, you see resources being wasted.

Others see the world though a different lens they start with for example God first, then family and work outward, their church and it's school are attached. Then they see people wanting to dismantle what's there rather than understand why it's there and leave it alone, as these schools do well.

I don't like faith schools in general because they are

Discriminatory and round here leave some families with nothing nearby even though there's loads of schools.

I do not believe that religious practice and school should be mixed as per Lisa Simpson who put the argument well!

I do think it's divisive not to have children segregated due to religious belief of parents. Not going to school with other faiths reduces exposure and IME it's true that mixing and being friends with children who are not the same in whatever way is beneficial.

The entry criteria are often very strict round here which does end up being selective for families with certain set ups/ situations.

The ones that put siblings way down list are making life really difficult for some parents and the reason I suppose is to limit the siblings of the occasional child who gets in outside religious criteria. I think that's really poor.

Probably more!

However.

It's not changing anytime I will see as church land, buildings etc make it impossible.

@SunIsBehindGreySky

NiceGerbil

I think I can understand the way you look at the situation. You see a school, you see resources being wasted.

Others see the world though a different lens they start with for example God first, then family and work outward, their church and it's school are attached. Then they see people wanting to dismantle what's there rather than understand why it's there and leave it alone, as these schools do well.

That's not how I see it at all!

Can you say why you got to that conclusion.

The school is teaching children. That's what it's there for. In what way is that wasting resources?

[quote CayrolBaaaskin]@NiceGerbil - hmm I suppose maybe I think she in borehamwood because her user name is @storminborehamwood.

What is your issue with these sects schools? Extremism in Muslim schools in Birmingham was something reported in media.[/quote]
A quick opportunity to paint Muslims in a bad light and use the "extremism" word eh? Several Jewish schools have also been investigated in the media incase you were oblivious

Also love how @NiceGerbil called you out on the random strange statement but you conveniently ignored

it means a school that in this area will be bloody ages to get to when there are multiple schools in walking distance. And children being brought in from further away. I think that walking to school is brilliant. Reducing pollution is great. And this Criss crossing and time to go further is no good for pollution congestion the children etc etc

I went to a religious school my children did not, they are adults, they would rather have gone to the religious school and I regret my decision also, they plan to send their children to religious schools.

Round here due to the situation with locality most schools are faith etc. It's not about being devout/ faithful to the religion etc for the vast majority.

RC schools are mainly full of children of those who are culturally RC iyswim. All the schools are good it's about how can I get my child into one that won't screw my commute by sending me off in the wrong direction every morning at rush hour. That my parents can get to without masses of grief.

Loads of people look up the criteria when they're pregnant of local schools and think ok what can I do to increase my chances of getting something that won't make our daily lives an utter sod.

Loads of churches massive load of parents (usually mum) with children aged 0- 4.

I know many don't like it and I understand why but that's the reality.

If the schools could look into parents head and see their strength of belief and their actual thoughts. I'd bet on the schools being pretty much empty.

Can't comment on anything other than RC and CofE on that point.

That's what is actually going on. Which must piss off those who do have strong faith. But what can be done? Play the game or have a really difficult years juggling. Arranging with work to start late. That sort of stuff.

The reason it happens is because of the very high proportion of faith schools. And if they didn't do it. The schools would struggle to get pupils. Unless they start shipping them in from other areas? Which would be even worse!

RC schools are mainly full of children of those who are culturally RC iyswim.

I think most people are like that now. I remember a time when it was different. I don't know if times just changed, some say it was Vatican II. It all started changing as I was a child. Then the fist institutions the scouts and RC church started to be exposed, that out many of us off, then it was followed by the BBC, NHS and just about every institution going. Then some things happened, I never left God, I left the church and have returned, I know it's dying, I know I am unpopular to take this turn when others move further away and get annoyed at us for not joining them and sharing their beliefs.

What sort of year?

Trying to remember. I went to an RC primary as did most of my friends. Mine had nuns and there was 1 hour religious assembly every morning. Also had to be silent in lunch room. Didn't go to secondary RC but loads of friends did.

What were the changes and when-ish? Really interested. Trying to remember how many friends parents were adherents rather than practicing.

I'm nearly 50.

I never believed even when little. I do think there's an element of some people having an inside thing towards spirituality for want of a better word. Many raised with no religion seek out a belief system that meets their needs in terms of things like values, level of formality, their feeling there is something else unknowable, community and so on.

And others just don't have that.

Have had some really interesting conversations with friends about it! Friendly but totally unable to even imagine feeling like the other one!

This is a massive diversion though sorry.

Yabu.

Church schools existed long before the state decided to provide universal education. The government negotiated with the church in good faith to incorporate existing church schools into the new state education system, with that negotiation including the agreement that church schools could select on faith grounds.

Parents have the responsibility to ensure their child receives an education, they don't have to use any specific school, a variety of school types exist which have a variety of levels of popularity in relation to places available. Schools with religious entry criteria are often very popular because they have better overall results than other schools, but they are also popular because some parents particularly want their children educated in an environment that upholds the values of their faith. We have freedom of religion and that is ok.

The problem isn't the criteria. The problem is that there are insufficient places at good schools, and insufficient good schools that aren't religious in character. You can't fix the problem by changing the character of the good schools by stopping them from doing what they do.

You are advocating reneging on a contract, effectively stripping the church of their legitimate assets to coopt them for secular education, depriving religious parents of their right to educate their children in line with their religion, instead of requiring the state to provide sufficient places at secular schools that are of equivalent quality to the religious schools. That's the wrong solution, based on a misunderstanding of the problem.

NiceGerbil

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vatican_Council

You can use this as a starting point.

My understanding is that it went "live" in various countries and places at different times and in incremental steps. Some say it basically turned the RC church into what Matin Luther wanted all along.

I have always believed, though I have doubts every so often for a few days and always return, I had the unusual situation of the only athiest parent around in childhood, refused to attend my First holy communion etc, spent time doing impressions of people in church and laughing at everyone for believing etc.

I totally get it some people just don't believe and some just do.

It's interesting to note that the Catholic school near me are the most foul mouthed disgusting kids as opposed to the state school which seems very well behaved.

Thank you that's really interesting.

My read is essentially that they wanted to expand the congregation globally and to achieve that they moved away from language and ritual that might be seen as intimidating/ confusing / unwelcoming (in modern parlance not 'accessible') and softened their stance on some major areas.

Is that right?

Faith schools aren't always better. I worked in one that went into special measures and got shut down.
Not all families who send their kids to faith schools follow the faith in reality, a lot of lies. It's all a bit farcical. Buying into an illusion, on both sides.
I train teachers now and some of the lamest, laziest trainees I tried to help ended up securing jobs at faith schools. Possibly because they too Know how to put on an act. A posh voice helps too.

If we are ever to strive for integration and equality, faith schools need to go. There's something very disturbing to me about parents forcing religion onto their children.
I actually believe religious affiliation should be something a child chooses at 18 or over.

Against that's 2 schools! I don't understand what your observation adds to the conversation?