to think "no woman aborts a baby lightly" is untrue and unhelpful?

[ZoeCM]

I've noticed this phrase being used a lot following the news about Texas. I'm pro-choice, and I don't think it helps our cause.

There are women who have abortions lightly. It's not a myth started by the Daily Mail. I don't even think it's necessarily even that rare.

There are women who actively want a baby in the near future, are in stable relationships, aren't even using contraception, but still decide to abort because the timing isn't 100% perfect: they don't want to cancel their holiday abroad, or give birth until the extension on their house is finished. Trust me, it happens. Does anyone really think those women agonised over whether the holiday/extension was more important than the baby, before painfully including that abortion was the only option? Of course not. And that's fine. Women shouldn't have to ask if their reasons for aborting are "good enough".

Then there are the women who are on their fifth or sixth abortion - workers at abortion clinics will confirm that this does happen. It seems unlikely that those women agonised over their decisions either, because presumably they would have put some long-term contraception in place to stop it happening again. I expect most of them come from pretty traumatic backgrounds, but that doesn't mean their decision to abort isn't made perfectly casually.

This phrase is a gift for pro-lifers, because it's so easily disproved: many of them will have stories about women they know who've had abortions without a second thought. A better argument would simply be that it doesn't matter why a woman wants an abortion: she should be allowed one because it's her body and her choice.

I think anyone that chooses not to use contraception but has abortions repeatedly must have a screw lose.

I agree op. I fully support women's choice, but it is not a very good argument for antiabortionists as its not true for all

How many of you are actually pro choice though? Because pro choice usually turns to forced birther past a certain point in the pregnancy. I have skin in the game for this one as I was completely unaware I was pregnant until 20 weeks for a multitude of reasons including reliability taking the depo vera shot.

I have literally had to go through a forced birth. I imagine the vast majority of pro choice advocates are the same as anti abortionists, the only difference being the difference in timeline (if that makes sense)

I hadn’t even thought about it beforehand.

Surely if you truly feel that abortion is murder, then there is no excuse for it, ever. It doesn't make it ok to murder someone because they are really really causing you pain, and you have agonised over the decision.

If (as I believe) abortion is not murder, then it is fine to have one just because it is the right thing for you at that time. Your decision making process is your own business, and has nothing to do with the rights and wrongs of the matter.

The reason for abortion or feelings of the woman is no one else's business except for hers. The idea of women having to be seen to be suffering for their decision is distasteful and outdated, and only there to pacify those who would be anti abortion. (Hands up, I personally don't like abortion, (but who does?) but I dislike the idea of choice being taken away from women even more.)

In USSR, for example, abortion was one of the main contraception methods. It wasn't particularly unusual to have a few dozens during your lifetime, it was considered quite a routine procedure similar going to the dentist.

@EdgeOfACoin

Some people are very uncomfortable with the thought of terminating a human life. I am one of them. I take an equally dim view of men who have sex with women and then try to pressure them into having an abortion.

I also think that in the modern world, with the various contraception options open to us, there is little excuse for getting pregnant accidentally.

Do I think abortion should be illegal? No. Do I think abortion should not be trivialised, that the termination of a human life is more significant than ending a toothache and that abortion is not just another form of contraception? Yes.

You can accuse my attitudes of coming from the 1950s if you wish, but oh well. This is a matter of conscience for me. It is possible to understand the reasons for needing legal abortion while still holding a negative view of the process.

And once again, for the people at the back, I do believe abortion needs to be legal to an extent.

But while I believe many women agonise over their decisions, there are certainly those who do not.

I completely agree with you.

Some of the comments on this thread have made me very uncomfortable.

I suppose that makes sense. It's not going to appeal to the moral highground of most voters though. In fact, if it is just a form of birth control, is that really OK?

I think a lot of people think this is more complex than yes or no.

@OlympicProcrastinator

How many of you are actually pro choice though? Because pro choice usually turns to forced birther past a certain point in the pregnancy. I have skin in the game for this one as I was completely unaware I was pregnant until 20 weeks for a multitude of reasons including reliability taking the depo vera shot.

I have literally had to go through a forced birth. I imagine the vast majority of pro choice advocates are the same as anti abortionists, the only difference being the difference in timeline (if that makes sense)

I hadn’t even thought about it beforehand.

I'm 100% pro choice - "As early as possible or as late as necessary". It's up to the individual woman when or why she has an abortion.

@HavelockVetinari

I believe that a woman's right to bodily autonomy should always trump a baby's right to life.

I also think casual abortion without it being a horrible decision is wrong - it's a baby, a human life.

Doesn't mean I'd ban abortion, but women who can kill their own baby without a moral twinge are either psychologically damaged or genuinely evil.

If anyone is evil, it's those who place an unformed potential human above an actual living and breathing one, and force the latter to go through pregnancy, labour and parenthood, with all the associated risks, when she doesn't want to. They don't usually give a shit what happens to the baby afterwards as long as birth has taken place.

You say you're not one of them, but your absolutely cockeyed and deranged hyperbole here definitely aids and abets them, and they would consider you an ally.

You wouldn't know evil if it strapped you to a delivery table to force a labour to which you did not consent.

@DustyMaiden

I think anyone that chooses not to use contraception but has abortions repeatedly must have a screw lose.

So what?

Someone else's decisions about their own body are of no concern to you.

I think people who like sundried tomatoes must have a screw loose. Does anyone care? No. Should they care? Absolutely not.

So much of this could be solved by people just minding their own business.

Doesn't mean I'd ban abortion, but women who can kill their own baby without a moral twinge are either psychologically damaged or genuinely evil

I am neither of those things.
It wasn’t a ‘baby’, it was a cluster of cells. Continuing with that pregnancy would have been absolutely the wrong thing for everyone involved.
No ‘moral twinge’, no agonising, no regrets.

We live in a culture where women can have an abortion lightly and that is ok, but it not the same for many other cultures or even different social groups in our own culture.

The thing that makes abortion more acceptable in less approving society groups is convincing the pro lifers that an abortion is not always a decision taken in the spur of a moment, that the mum is not an irresponsible person with no morals who was careless. In these less accepting groups, women do actually face an agonising decision, as they will face the condemnation of the group if they abort, but they will also be judged if they go ahead with a pregnancy on their own.

@Chocaholic9 perhaps it isn't the thread for you if it is making you uncomfortable.

If you don't like abortion, don't have one.

Just keep out of everyone else's business and get on with your life. You'll be fine.

women who can kill their own baby without a moral twinge are either psychologically damaged or genuinely evil

Guess I'm evil then. I aborted twins at 6 weeks without a single moral twinge. My ex tampered with our birth control because he was an abusive dick, I already have 3 kids and another pregnancy would have made my disabilities worse. So I chose not to be a disabled single mother of 5. If I had gone ahead with the pregnancy I bet you'd be one of those calling me feckless for having so many kids.

When I had an abortion about 10 years ago I had to give a reason to the nurse from the clinic when I was booking the appointment. When I gave her my reason (that we couldn’t afford to have another child) she told me that wasn’t an acceptable reason to terminate. I literally had to give her one of her “acceptable” list of answers before I could be booked in. Always seemed completely bizarre to me.

@Louloubelles

When I had an abortion about 10 years ago I had to give a reason to the nurse from the clinic when I was booking the appointment. When I gave her my reason (that we couldn’t afford to have another child) she told me that wasn’t an acceptable reason to terminate. I literally had to give her one of her “acceptable” list of answers before I could be booked in. Always seemed completely bizarre to me.

And if you’d had a baby you couldn’t afford, people on MN would be queuing up to tell you you shouldn’t have kids if you can’t afford them. Can’t win.

Yes, it's almost as though this isn't about babies at all, and more about controlling women.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

Abortion is simply going back to life exactly as it was before.

Its more thought provoking to keep a pregnancy imo.

A woman should have an abortion simply because she wants one, it's not the bloody xfactor where there needs to be a sob story.

This.

you're right. What women want is to not be pregnant.
These texan men in suits have no comprehension of what women go through and they just don't care.

Haven't read the whole thread, but I agree that the narrative about how terrible abortion is for all women who have one, isn't true or helpful

I agree with you, @TunMahla. Treating a pregnancy/fetus/unborn child (use whatever term you like) is appalling, in my opinion. It is right that abortion be available, but equating terminating a pregnancy to dealing with a toothache is abhorrent.

@DustyMaiden

I think anyone that chooses not to use contraception but has abortions repeatedly must have a screw lose.

Doesn't mean I'd ban abortion, but women who can kill their own baby without a moral twinge are either psychologically damaged or genuinely evil

It's not a baby at six weeks. At 39 weeks you may have more of a point - but in the UK at least, you only abort a baby that late for very specific reasons.

Anyway if I had been raped, you're right - I'd abort the pregnancy without a second's thought. Not sure that makes me either damaged or evil - I just wouldn't want to carry or bring up a rapist's child. Some women do - either because they have to or they want to. I would not.

@EdgeOfACoin I agree with you.

I believe abortions should be legal. I don't think women should agonise over them. However I also don't think ending a life should be trivialised or used as a late method of contraception either.

@Unicornish

Yes, it's almost as though this isn't about babies at all, and more about controlling women.

Yes it's so strange that, isn't it?