to think "no woman aborts a baby lightly" is untrue and unhelpful?

[ZoeCM]

I've noticed this phrase being used a lot following the news about Texas. I'm pro-choice, and I don't think it helps our cause.

There are women who have abortions lightly. It's not a myth started by the Daily Mail. I don't even think it's necessarily even that rare.

There are women who actively want a baby in the near future, are in stable relationships, aren't even using contraception, but still decide to abort because the timing isn't 100% perfect: they don't want to cancel their holiday abroad, or give birth until the extension on their house is finished. Trust me, it happens. Does anyone really think those women agonised over whether the holiday/extension was more important than the baby, before painfully including that abortion was the only option? Of course not. And that's fine. Women shouldn't have to ask if their reasons for aborting are "good enough".

Then there are the women who are on their fifth or sixth abortion - workers at abortion clinics will confirm that this does happen. It seems unlikely that those women agonised over their decisions either, because presumably they would have put some long-term contraception in place to stop it happening again. I expect most of them come from pretty traumatic backgrounds, but that doesn't mean their decision to abort isn't made perfectly casually.

This phrase is a gift for pro-lifers, because it's so easily disproved: many of them will have stories about women they know who've had abortions without a second thought. A better argument would simply be that it doesn't matter why a woman wants an abortion: she should be allowed one because it's her body and her choice.

I had an abortion without a second thought.

Abortion should be available freely for all women. As soon as possible, as late as necessary.

A choice is a choice - different people have different ways of making decisions.

I'm childfree by choice and remained so by careful use of contraception throughout my fertile years. I often worried about what would happen if my contraception failed - abortion versus giving up the child for adoption, as I strongly did not feel I would be a fit mother.

Considering the latter option I was influenced more than anything by the very selfish consideration that at least I would get maternity leave from work.

It certainly wouldn't have been an easy decision to have an abortion but fortunately, my contraceptive efforts never let me down and I am now post-hysterectomy so it's something I will never have to worry about again.

I don't envy any woman who has to make the choice, whether it's one they have to agonise over or not.

@ all EdgeOfACoin excellent post.

@scarpa

I hate this too. In my experience, it wasn't a remotely difficult decision. I was pregnant, and I didn't want to be. No crying or agonising or moral weighing up - I needed the available form of healthcare and I got it.

The 'nobody does it lightly' is silently followed by '...because we know it's hard/bad to do, and therefore you need to have a really good reason'. It's yet another moral judgement made even by those who think they're pro-choice, but they're actually pro-choice as long as the woman has an excuse that they find valid. That's why I hate it.

Abortion is not bad.

Forcing someone to become a mother when they don't want to, for WHATEVER reason, however frivolous or serious it is, is bad. Making choices or judgements about someone else's body because of your own moral code is bad. But having an abortion when you want one is not bad.

As early as possible, as late as is necessary (and 'not wanting to be a mother', for ANY reason, is a necessity).

Crossed posts with you.

I couldn’t agree more.

[quote Chocaholic9]@Unicornish - people are providing their opinions on the matter here. I have the right to share my thoughts just as others are. Mind your own business, please.[/quote]
So you use your own views to inform your own decision making processes. In this case, by choosing not to have an abortion.

It isn't your concern what other people do with their own bodies and I'm not sure why you think your opinion is so important.

You do you. If you don't like abortions, don't have one. Problem solved, unless you like delving into other people's business.

ZoeCM
A better argument would simply be that it doesn't matter why a woman wants an abortion: she should be allowed one because it's her body and her choice.

That’s not a great argument. There are very few jurisdictions that would prosecute a woman who induces an abortion on herself. The argument falls down because women are seeking the involvement of a third party in their termination, usually a registered medical practitioner. Medical practitioners are regulated. The activities they can perform, and to some extent the manner in which they perform them, are regulated. So it’s not really a matter of autonomy but of medical regulation.

That a person consents to an activity is not considered sufficient in other situations: tattoos of minors, serious physical harm or death. We are also seeing increasing outrage against low sentences given in cases of deaths of women that occur during BDSM activities. Considering the outrageous acts perpetrated on these women, it is logical to conclude that the relatively short sentences are due in part to a belief that they consented to the risk of serious harm. These sentences are at odds with the law in England and Wales on GBH and death in other circumstances.

Also, people are not usually able to obtain any medical procedure they want, just because they want it. Medical practitioners have to be satisfied that the medical procedure is in the patient’s best interest. That is the case for all medical procedures. What is the argument for making an exception in the case of termination of pregnancy?

Sorry I've posted on here a few times but it's something I feel passionate about I think the women who have abortions with no agonising or feeling bad, whatever are done in early pregnancy as they obviously knew they didn't want to be pregnancy which is absolutely fine.

Pro birthers use extreme examples most of the time that a baby is getting killed and the woman is 40 weeks pregnant etc so they try and make out like all abortions are always late term abortions and I would argue that a woman who has had to have a late term abortion probably does agonise over it (usually because it's for a medical reason) you're not telling me a woman has an abortion at 23 weeks because she wants to go on holiday.

@PurrBox

Surely if you truly feel that abortion is murder, then there is no excuse for it, ever. It doesn't make it ok to murder someone because they are really really causing you pain, and you have agonised over the decision.

If (as I believe) abortion is not murder, then it is fine to have one just because it is the right thing for you at that time. Your decision making process is your own business, and has nothing to do with the rights and wrongs of the matter.

This is exactly it. If you believe that having an abortion is 'killing a baby' then you will disapprove of any woman having an abortion. I do not believe this. Having in an abortion is removing unwanted cells from the body. It is not killing a baby.

Yanbu and no one should ever have to justify their feelings/reasons either.

I had a miscarriage and had no feelings of devastation, trauma, the need to plant a rose in the baby’s memory etc which is the expected emotion to have. This undoubtedly makes me a heartless bitch so to this day I have never told a soul, and some of the comments on this thread have made me realise I made the right decision to never share how I feel.

@Unicornish - sorry but you're projecting a bunch of stuff onto me that doesn't fit. I don't go round passing judgment on women in my life who have an abortion. I know some but I've never commented or judged because it is not my place to do so.

Someone created a thread which has generated many opinions, of which one is mine. I'm allowed to state my philosophy on abortion here. Not sure why you object to this since you're also stating yours. Bit hypocritical, no?

A foetus/embryo/bunch of cells/whatever you want to call it is not a baby. It’s not a sentient being. Even when it does grow into something resembling a baby it’s still inside someone else’s body - it’s not an independent being and therefore should never come before or above the woman carrying it. As early as possible, as late as necessary, for whatever reason. I don’t care if someone has abortions for “careless” reasons or has multiple ones. Not my business. Not a justification to limit abortion.

I’ve had one and I don’t give it a second thought, it was necessary, not difficult or traumatic and I didn’t agonise over it whatsoever. I’ve had harder decisions when it comes to what to have for dinner. I felt nothing but relief after I’d removed something unwanted and unnecessary from my body.

@Chocaholic9

Abortion should be available and legal for all women but I also think it's morally wrong to terminate a pregnancy because you couldn't be bothered to wear a condom, for example.

But - and I hope this is what you mean - your moral values shouldn't have any bearing of whether or not another woman is allowed to do it, right?

That's the issue. People assume that "I disagree with this" = "Nobody else should be allowed to do it, they are bad". If you disagree with abortion because you couldn't be arsed to wear a condom, that's your business (although I'd argue it'd be morally worse to birth a child you didn't want instead - once conception has happened, those are your only choices).

But we shouldn't be conflating people's own personal opinions with absolute moral truth.

[quote grannybee55]@EdgeOfACoin I agree with you.

I believe abortions should be legal. I don't think women should agonise over them. However I also don't think ending a life should be trivialised or used as a late method of contraception either. [/quote]
So what should happen if someone find it trivial for them then?

And more importantly, what should happen if a termination can't be used 'as a late form of contraception'? Are you saying that a woman in that situation should be forced to continue her pregnancy? It's an either/or question isn't it. She either has a termination under circumstances people likes you find acceptable, or she must carry on and give birth to a child. I find that abhorrent actually.

I worked in theatres in the days when surgical terminations were the only option. We'd have lists of maybe 15 women and girls all having a termination. Why they wanted one was not, and is not, my business. It's not my place to judge other women's choices, and it's definitely not for me to judge whether or not they suffered enough emotionally making that decision. I'll stand up for the rights of women like those I looked after until my dying day.

I have an abortion in my late teens. We used protection but obviously failed.

From the moment I found out I woke with panic attacks every night. We were struggling financially and honestly i just didn't want to me a mum.

As soon as I made the decision I felt relief. I was 7 weeks by the time I had the abortion.

I was very depressed after and started on anti depressants. I was so ashamed of myself (still am). I don't regret the decision I'm just ashamed I was in that situation.

It was also the end of our relationship as it made me realise I didn't want to be with him.

As I was there. There was a girl from Ireland that had flown over for the same thing. She literally had to fly back the same day. She was crying the entire time she was sat waiting because she clearly didn't want to go through with it.

There was also a girl that was 20 weeks pregnant. Who was aborting because her boyfriend cheated on her and honestly couldn't care less.

I don't agree with abortions after 12 weeks, only under special circumstances and definitely don't think people should be able to to go for multiple abortions.

Whatever your opinions on abortion or how women ought to feel about them.

No one can ever answer how it would be better to bring a life into the world unwanted by its mother. If these women are such heartless psychos then why should they be forced into giving birth to an innocent child?

And before anyone piped up with adoption, there are already more than enough unwanted, neglected and abused children in the care system. As well as children living in poverty here and around the world.

Why don't the lovely pro lifers adopt a few of them? You all care so much about children and poking around in other peoples business. Or do you only care about cute little newborns? Rather than damaged children and teens.

What you actually want is more babies to be born into horrendous circumstances.

Are you simply idealistic or realistic?

I honestly dont get the angst over early miscarriage either. Ive never had one but know somebody who has had three between other babies. She doesn't the angst either. I certainly don't think you are the only one but its never said.

I don't agree with abortions after 12 weeks, only under special circumstances and definitely don't think people should be able to to go for multiple abortions.

So your circumstances were OK, and you understand them, but you can't open your mind to understand others circumstances?

What do you think the cut off should be? 2 abortions? 3? Then what? "Sorry, you must give birth because you've had the maximum amount of abortions".

Its bizarre to me that women want to use pregnancy and childbirth to punish other women.

I think abortion needs to be freely available, but it is taking a life and I can't agree that that should ever be trivialised or taken lightly.

@Hoodie23

I have an abortion in my late teens. We used protection but obviously failed.

From the moment I found out I woke with panic attacks every night. We were struggling financially and honestly i just didn't want to me a mum.

As soon as I made the decision I felt relief. I was 7 weeks by the time I had the abortion.

I was very depressed after and started on anti depressants. I was so ashamed of myself (still am). I don't regret the decision I'm just ashamed I was in that situation.

It was also the end of our relationship as it made me realise I didn't want to be with him.

As I was there. There was a girl from Ireland that had flown over for the same thing. She literally had to fly back the same day. She was crying the entire time she was sat waiting because she clearly didn't want to go through with it.

There was also a girl that was 20 weeks pregnant. Who was aborting because her boyfriend cheated on her and honestly couldn't care less.

I don't agree with abortions after 12 weeks, only under special circumstances and definitely don't think people should be able to to go for multiple abortions.

So what if you fell pregnant now, and you really didn't want to be? You feel you should be 'punished' for a contraceptive failure in your teens with the lifelong responsibility of a child?

I'm sad for you that you felt shame and guilt. You did nothing wrong - you made a choice for yourself and your circumstances, and you were lucky enough to have the option to make that choice. You should seek therapy, and I mean that very kindly - feeling ashamed that you were 'in that situation' when it was quite literally a contraceptive failure you could have done nothing about shows that you either have shame and guilt surrounding having sex at all (which is sad, and could be potentially overcome with therapy) or you haven't managed to grasp that the contraceptive failure wasn't your fault, which it wasn't because it was nobody's fault, it just happens.

But, again, your moral feeling about abortion, or getting pregnant in the first place, has absolutely no bearing on what other women should be allowed to do. Nobody cares if you don't think women should or shouldn't be allowed to do anything with your body. You got the benefit of healthcare to stop you having to have a child when you needed it - it's not your place to decide who else gets it or what circumstances you deem acceptable personally. It's very literally none of your business.

@OlympicProcrastinator

How many of you are actually pro choice though? Because pro choice usually turns to forced birther past a certain point in the pregnancy. I have skin in the game for this one as I was completely unaware I was pregnant until 20 weeks for a multitude of reasons including reliability taking the depo vera shot.

I have literally had to go through a forced birth. I imagine the vast majority of pro choice advocates are the same as anti abortionists, the only difference being the difference in timeline (if that makes sense)

I hadn’t even thought about it beforehand.

I suppose technically I would say "as early as possible, as late as necessary" and for any reason a woman chooses.

But the reality of the situation is that once you get to a certain stage of pregnancy you are giving birth whether the baby is alive or not. There's no other way to remove it other than surgery and that is generally not an option.

I know several women who have had late stage abortions (TFMR) and all of them gave birth. One was very late - post 30 weeks.

The other issue with very late abortions for non medical reasons is that someone has to perform it. All of the babies above were very very poorly, most with limited or no life expectancy.

But I think you'd be hard pushed to find a Dr who would terminate the life of a healthy full term foetus just because the mother didn't want it. I know I wouldn't be able to do it - even though I think that women should be able to abort at any stage.

So there are issues beyond agreeing that it should be possible if you know what I mean.

@SunnyMustard

It's just as untrue as "my body, my choice" ... hell no! "Baby's body, not your choice."

It's when you have sex that you can (potentially) choose if you want a baby or not. The choice is already done.

@SunnyMustard If it's the 'baby's' (no such thing at that stage, it's a boneless, organless bloodclot) body, then that means it is foreign matter and I therefore have the right to remove it from my person, and that 'body' can stop invading my body without my consent. Checkmate.

Consent to sex, is NOT consent to pregnancy! A woman ALWAYS has a choice, before and during pregnancy.

[quote Chocaholic9]@Unicornish - people are providing their opinions on the matter here. I have the right to share my thoughts just as others are. Mind your own business, please.[/quote]
Of course you have that right. I would point out however that it seems as though your thoughts are based on just that, your beliefs and thoughts, and while that is perfectly valid and you have every right to express them there are people on here whose thoughts and opinions are based on their actual experience, ie of having to make a choice about an abortion, which, forgive me if I am wrong, I don’t think is a situation you have ever had to face for yourself.

I hope that if you had , or have, ever been faced with that choice you would have been able to make a decision you were happy with either way.

We are lucky in this country that (apart from our sisters in NI) we have been able to make choices either way. I assume that many of us have seen the film Vera Drake which so vividly illustrates how women in the UK pre 1967 , and presumably many women in other countries today, are forced to deal with unwanted pregnancy.

@MorrisZapp

I agree. The media presents abortion as an agonising, upsetting choice that women only turn to in desperation.

I had an unplanned pregnancy in my twenties, didn't even think twice. Phoned the doctor, got it all arranged then went in and had it. Took one day off work.

I had not one agonising moment and nor did I think long and hard over my decision, the same way that if you have toothache you don't think long and hard about ringing the dentist.

I'd rather not have had to have my termination, but it had no mental or physical impact on me at all.

Did you not feel shame?

Tell me @Islamorada , how exactly does one use abortion as contraception?