to think "no woman aborts a baby lightly" is untrue and unhelpful?

[ZoeCM]

I've noticed this phrase being used a lot following the news about Texas. I'm pro-choice, and I don't think it helps our cause.

There are women who have abortions lightly. It's not a myth started by the Daily Mail. I don't even think it's necessarily even that rare.

There are women who actively want a baby in the near future, are in stable relationships, aren't even using contraception, but still decide to abort because the timing isn't 100% perfect: they don't want to cancel their holiday abroad, or give birth until the extension on their house is finished. Trust me, it happens. Does anyone really think those women agonised over whether the holiday/extension was more important than the baby, before painfully including that abortion was the only option? Of course not. And that's fine. Women shouldn't have to ask if their reasons for aborting are "good enough".

Then there are the women who are on their fifth or sixth abortion - workers at abortion clinics will confirm that this does happen. It seems unlikely that those women agonised over their decisions either, because presumably they would have put some long-term contraception in place to stop it happening again. I expect most of them come from pretty traumatic backgrounds, but that doesn't mean their decision to abort isn't made perfectly casually.

This phrase is a gift for pro-lifers, because it's so easily disproved: many of them will have stories about women they know who've had abortions without a second thought. A better argument would simply be that it doesn't matter why a woman wants an abortion: she should be allowed one because it's her body and her choice.

I just don't think it's realistic to think nobody should judge anyone for anything.

Good, because a lot of people will be judging you.

@HerRoyalRisesAgain

We all have things we think are morally iffy or even wrong even if they don't affect us at all.

Drink driving and drug taking care affect others though an abortion affects literally no one except the woman

A friend cheating on their partner doesn't affect you at all. Does that mean you don't get to have any opinions or feelings about it? It wouldn't make you wonder if they're the kind of person you want as a friend?

@DrSbaitso

I just don't think it's realistic to think nobody should judge anyone for anything.

Good, because a lot of people will be judging you.

Couldn't give a fuck. Carry on being a nasty hypocrite.

Taken lightly with a in reference to women who have multiple abortions or don't take precautions, particularly after a previous abortion (where they'd be offered and made aware of contraception)

We can argue it's not common, but of course some people do this.

People don't like the idea of it being taken lightly, as a natural reaction, because it means it's likely to happen again. If you make a serious - however instantaneous - decision to abort and sort out contraception, no reasonable person would judge, whether inwardly or outwardly.

Taking lightly isn't about timeframe it's more about mentality and viewing the embryo or fetus as worthless, which will make people uncomfortable, even if they support abortion generally

A friend cheating on their partner doesn't affect you at all. Does that mean you don't get to have any opinions or feelings about it? It wouldn't make you wonder if they're the kind of person you want as a friend?

No because its none of my business what a friend does or doesn't do. If they want to cheat that's up to them.

Couldn't give a fuck. Carry on being a nasty hypocrite.

Are you aware that that is exactly what those people think about you and your own judgement?

So, if a woman isn’t morally troubled by an abortion, or perceives any individual tension within herself in regards to her choice, she is lacking in both morality and intelligence? Oh, and then there’s the question of regret. If we don’t agonise and regret now, then we almost certainly will later, even decades down the line. Got it.

I don’t know why it’s so difficult to understand that people experience life very differently to one another, and because someone has one viewpoint, that it must also hold true for everyone else. It’s patronising, and it is nonsense.

I have no moral qualms in regards to having had an abortion. I have no moral qualms in helping other women access the same service. There is no ‘tension’ for me.

I wonder if the expectation of suffering relates to religious heritage (cultural, if not personal). You can do something, but you must feel dreadful guilt and heartache as a necessary atonement for it.

@HerRoyalRisesAgain

A friend cheating on their partner doesn't affect you at all. Does that mean you don't get to have any opinions or feelings about it? It wouldn't make you wonder if they're the kind of person you want as a friend?

No because its none of my business what a friend does or doesn't do. If they want to cheat that's up to them.

So as I said ,some people have different ideas about morals and behaviour.

So as I said ,some people have different ideas about morals and behaviour.

But only you are allowed to make judgements on it? Anyone who does it to you, based on your call for judgement, is a nasty hypocrite?

And that's not hypocritical of you?

@HerRoyalRisesAgain

You don't get to demand that other people are happy about it.

No one is demanding that. Were saying that it doesn't matter if you're happy or not because its none of your business

In which case, what’s the point of this thread? If it’s purely an individual act and everyone else should keep their beak out, why are we even discussing it? It’s not our business, is it?

Drink driving and drug taking care affect others though an abortion affects literally no one except the woman

I'm pretty sure it has an effect on the fetus...

@ThePriceIsNotRight

So, if a woman isn’t morally troubled by an abortion, or perceives any individual tension within herself in regards to her choice, she is lacking in both morality and intelligence? Oh, and then there’s the question of regret. If we don’t agonise and regret now, then we almost certainly will later, even decades down the line. Got it.

I don’t know why it’s so difficult to understand that people experience life very differently to one another, and because someone has one viewpoint, that it must also hold true for everyone else. It’s patronising, and it is nonsense.

I have no moral qualms in regards to having had an abortion. I have no moral qualms in helping other women access the same service. There is no ‘tension’ for me.

I wonder if the expectation of suffering relates to religious heritage (cultural, if not personal). You can do something, but you must feel dreadful guilt and heartache as a necessary atonement for it.

Why do you care if that's what people think? They are entitled to think that.

Some people don't think taking drugs is a big deal. Others think it's morally very wrong. Some people don't have a problem wearing clothes made in sweat shops. Others find it wrong. Some people don't have a problem eating meat. Others find it wrong.

Why is it only this topic which suddenly means nobody is allowed to feel differently to you?

@DrSbaitso

So as I said ,some people have different ideas about morals and behaviour.

But only you are allowed to make judgements on it? Anyone who does it to you, based on your call for judgement, is a nasty hypocrite?

And that's not hypocritical of you?

Yes, I'm allowed to make judgements about whatever I want, as is everyone else. That's my entire point. How is it so challenging for you?

In which case, what’s the point of this thread? If it’s purely an individual act and everyone else should keep their beak out, why are we even discussing it? It’s not our business, is it?

Because sone people can't keep their nose out if other people's business

I'm pretty sure it has an effect on the fetus...

Which isn't a person in its own right until birth which means they don't count as a consideration. If a woman no longer wishes to be pregnant then its only her feelings that matter

Interesting that in a lot of American states abortion legislation is being tightdned up on. And lets face it abortion has been taboo for centuries in many different societies.

Yes, I'm allowed to make judgements about whatever I want, as is everyone else. That's my entire point. How is it so challenging for you?

Well I confess I don't see why you are so righteous in your judgements of others, but when they do the same to you, then they are the nasty hypocrites.

And if the pissy little snipes in every one of your posts are anything to go by, you really aren't very good at being challenged...

@Holly60

I think the thing is that most intelligent and morally conscious women would NOT take an abortion lightly. This is because there is a tension between the baby’s right to life and the mother’s right to bodily autonomy. There is no right answer about whose right should come first and therefore the women has to decide which one she wants to prioritise: her right to bodily autonomy or the baby’s right to life. So of course it’s not a decision that should be taken lightly.

What are you saying? That someone who is not intelligent and morally conscious is more guilty across your abortion spectrum.

This is such a rarefied out of touch argument and it is highly dangerous. Who are you - and indeed anyone else - to decide how bad someone has to feel about doing something which is legal and accessible for very good reasons based on their intelligence and moral conscience.
If they are wearing a hair shirt does it make you feel better?

Your post reeks of privilege and distaste.

@Viviennemary

Interesting that in a lot of American states abortion legislation is being tightdned up on. And lets face it abortion has been taboo for centuries in many different societies.

Part of the endless march towards regressing the lives and status of women.

You’re right - the OPs original point is right. If you truly are pro choice, you need to be pro choice regardless of the situation.

I’ve realised reading this thread, I’m not pro choice, because I can’t stand over that way of thinking. There’s no way I can say whatever your reason, it’s fine.

@HerRoyalRisesAgain

In which case, what’s the point of this thread? If it’s purely an individual act and everyone else should keep their beak out, why are we even discussing it? It’s not our business, is it?

Because sone people can't keep their nose out if other people's business

And yet here you are ...

And yet here you are ... yep telling people it's no ones business but the woman.

@HerRoyalRisesAgain

I'm pretty sure it has an effect on the fetus...

Which isn't a person in its own right until birth which means they don't count as a consideration. If a woman no longer wishes to be pregnant then its only her feelings that matter

Legal status is irrelevant unfortunately. It's alive, which is the only reason why people care. It's status as 'alive' is the point, not whether it's a legal person, here in the U.K.

If that were the case, abortion would be morally wrong in Texas etc.

We can argue a woman comes first, but the fetus is still alive, living, a living organism, human and whatever else.

The reason foetuses aren't classed as a person is to avoid legal complications like a mother smoking being child abuse, not because it's not a living thing.

@DrSbaitso

Yes, I'm allowed to make judgements about whatever I want, as is everyone else. That's my entire point. How is it so challenging for you?

Well I confess I don't see why you are so righteous in your judgements of others, but when they do the same to you, then they are the nasty hypocrites.

And if the pissy little snipes in every one of your posts are anything to go by, you really aren't very good at being challenged...

I'm not sure how much more I can spell it out for you.

I'm not saying people are hypocrites for judging me, I'm saying they're hypocrites for complaining about others judging when they do it themselves.

Do you get it yet?

@vdbfamily

I think the rhetoric around pregnancy is very dishonest. Describing a foetus as just a blob of jelly or a bunch of cells. We are all a bunch of cells so okay to kill each other. Someone said a foetus does not have bones, there are joints forming at 8 weeks and hardening of the bones at 12 weeks. We need to be honest about this and the minimising of what is actually taking place is quite distressing to read. I think in some circumstances abortion might be the lesser of 2 evils but it will always be the termination of a life that is defenceless. I personally think that women, like men, have a choice not to have sex and if they willingly have sex they should accept that a pregnancy might result. That is what I tell my son. I don't see why it should be different for women. And for those that day we are all welcome to our own opinions, abortion is ending a life/ stopping a heartbeat and therefore is a moral decision for which there is guidance and legislation. I would love abortion to not be necessary and certainly think we allow healthy foetuses to be killed far too late in pregnancy. FWIW I have had unwanted pregnancies but now have very lived children. It is disingenuous to say that all unwanted pregnancies will lead to unwanted children. A large proportion of women who abort because timing not quite convenient would end up loving those children of they did not abort. I know for a fact( including myself) several women who were debated to find themselves pregnant, one of them had 3 grown up children and a failing marriage, but because of religious convictions, all went ahead with pregnancies and are now all fine and coping.

Totally agree with this. As someone who had an unexpected and unwanted pregnancy, but went ahead with it. I didn't love my child any the less because the circumstances were less than ideal.