to think "no woman aborts a baby lightly" is untrue and unhelpful?

[ZoeCM]

I've noticed this phrase being used a lot following the news about Texas. I'm pro-choice, and I don't think it helps our cause.

There are women who have abortions lightly. It's not a myth started by the Daily Mail. I don't even think it's necessarily even that rare.

There are women who actively want a baby in the near future, are in stable relationships, aren't even using contraception, but still decide to abort because the timing isn't 100% perfect: they don't want to cancel their holiday abroad, or give birth until the extension on their house is finished. Trust me, it happens. Does anyone really think those women agonised over whether the holiday/extension was more important than the baby, before painfully including that abortion was the only option? Of course not. And that's fine. Women shouldn't have to ask if their reasons for aborting are "good enough".

Then there are the women who are on their fifth or sixth abortion - workers at abortion clinics will confirm that this does happen. It seems unlikely that those women agonised over their decisions either, because presumably they would have put some long-term contraception in place to stop it happening again. I expect most of them come from pretty traumatic backgrounds, but that doesn't mean their decision to abort isn't made perfectly casually.

This phrase is a gift for pro-lifers, because it's so easily disproved: many of them will have stories about women they know who've had abortions without a second thought. A better argument would simply be that it doesn't matter why a woman wants an abortion: she should be allowed one because it's her body and her choice.

We are born as blank slates

I'm pretty sure that's not true - in fact, psychologists now lean to nature outweighing nurture. People often share traits with parents they've never even met, grandparents who died before they were born, etc.

psychologists now lean to nature outweighing nurture

That is an interesting thought - a sense of entitlement possibly being a hereditary thing. I'd not really considered that reason at all.

@Clocktopus

I'm only asking out of interest to help understand. What was your second LARC that failed?

None of your business.

Well technically none of it is anyone's business, is it? If you post something personal, be prepared to get asked about it.

Well technically none of it is anyone's business, is it?

Just like abortion. None of it is anyone's business other than the woman seeking it.

If you post something personal, be prepared to get asked about it.

I get to decide what to post and where the boundaries are with whether or not to post further details. It's called choice.

[quote ViciousJackdaw]@Rozzie

The testicular reference was in response to your assertion that women should not feel 'entitled' to abortions. You knew that really though, didn't you?

I was attempting to explain that there is always a reason for truly entitled behaviour. Do you need me to use shorter words? Fewer syllables?[/quote]
I find it highly amusing that you're insulting my intelligence given your complete inability to understand anything you read and your insistence on twisting people's words and attacking straw men because you can't form a coherent argument of your own.

I never said women should not feel entitled to abortions. Show me where I said that.

@Clocktopus

Well technically none of it is anyone's business, is it?

Just like abortion. None of it is anyone's business other than the woman seeking it.

If you post something personal, be prepared to get asked about it.

I get to decide what to post and where the boundaries are with whether or not to post further details. It's called choice.

And I get to continue to think women who claim that multiple LARCs have failed in an incredibly short space of time are lying or otherwise misrepresenting the truth. It's called choice.

I never said women should not feel entitled to abortions. Show me where I said that

Has it occurred to you that some people just feel entitled to have whatever they want? It often really doesn't go deeper than that, whether it's abortions, party drugs or anything else

Why mention it if it isn't an issue?

@ViciousJackdaw

I never said women should not feel entitled to abortions. Show me where I said that

Has it occurred to you that some people just feel entitled to have whatever they want? It often really doesn't go deeper than that, whether it's abortions, party drugs or anything else

Why mention it if it isn't an issue?

Because it's what the effing thread is about?!?

You were spouting on about reasons for this, reasons for that as if there must be some underlying psychological cause for having a one night stand without protection. No, some people just want to do what they want to do, when they want to do it. It's that simple.

And I get to continue to think women who claim that multiple LARCs have failed in an incredibly short space of time are lying or otherwise misrepresenting the truth

Believe whatever you like, I couldn't give a single shit what you think.

17 pages of discussion. It should only be two lines.

That woman
Wanted an abortion

The morality and any one else's feelings are irrelevant.

That woman
Wanted an abortion.

It doesn't matter whether she has 50 or 1.

That woman
Wanted an abortion.

All other arguments are moot.

That's the only one that matters.

That woman
Wanted an abortion.

Either it's a thing or it's not. If abortion is acceptable;

That woman

Wanted an abortion.

Fini.

The ‘it has a heartbeat’/‘it a life’ argument is disingenuous when you consider that, as a species, we end countless lives on a daily basis. Lives that have far more autonomy and sentience than any embryo or fetus (or ‘unborn baby’ if you prefer).

I agree with you OP. I think it does the whole debate a bit of a disservice to say that, although I understand why people say it - it's pandering to the pro choice to make it more palatable for them. However it then makes the debate on their terms.

I'm as pro choice as they come, but like most societal issues, things aren't simple and people aren't perfect victims. Yes, sometimes people getting abortions are rape victims or women who used two types of contraception and took the MAP, other times it's women that didn't use contraception at all, even after previous abortions. There is no difference to me in worthiness to get an abortion.

Same with saying it isn't a baby/just a bunch of cells/etc. It is a life as much as any of us are a life, but I believe it's acceptable to end a life in certain circumstances, unwanted pregnancy being one of them. Euthanasia is another.

Ok, when abortion debates drill down I admit I've had six abortions. I don't feel bad about it. Would people like me to? There's interesting language used around abortion, I'm quite open about my abortions.

I'm quite happy to discuss. I'm 50 so they were over 34 years of Sexual activity..

Am I a bad person? No.

There was a poster early in this thread that declared multi-aborters bad mothers.

I think my last three abortions made me a better mother. A bad and lax contracepor surely. But not a bad mother..

And five of my abortions were whilst using contraception and it failing.

Three were after taking the MAP.

@TheWindow

I’ve had two abortions - one as a teenager and one as a middle aged woman with older children (including one with SN). Both times my contraception failed. Both times I knew immediately upon discovering I was pregnant that I would be having an abortion. Neither were difficult decisions. Both procedures were straightforward, and I felt nothing but immense relief afterwards. I wasn’t traumatised and didn’t experience any dark night of the soul moments. I was just bloody glad I didn’t have to go through with an unwanted pregnancy.

It’s almost taboo to say that, but I’m sure there are many others like me.

Absolutely, I had an abortion in my early 30s after having had 3 children. I didn't want a 4th, have never agonised over the decision but I have felt the need to over egg my reasons when I have mentioned it as it feels like something you have to justify. I mean, I had good reasons but actually it's my body and my choice (and a huge privilege of living in this country and being able to access that) and it's totally fine that I've never once doubted that decision.

I'll chime in now. I've had two. One when I was fifteen (and it was still illegal then), one when I was twenty-one which was legal. I don't regret either, never have.

@Strangeways19

I feel like a lot of women who have terminations regret or agonise about their decision at a later date, and this should be included in the traumatic experience it is, I have had a termination and I did agonise about it and regret it to this day, but I equally know people who have had terminations and who have only regretted it years later, or considered it in the light of their choices and life later on. Any emotional and or trauma on the body is some sort of trauma and to deny this is well, denial

Not true. My abortion was 20 years and I still haven’t had any mental or physical trauma as a result.

You present it as if you either agonise about it at the time or later - whereas many women never agonise

And the people mentioning that it’s public money - the ‘free’ contraception comes from public money too?. And do you not think that even a surgical abortion might be cheaper than providing pregnancy care, post natal care, not to mention care for the child as it grows up?

Argue morals or whatever if you must but public money is a straw man

@Idyllic

For women who are having repeat abortions, I wonder why LARC isn’t advised / recommended? That way, they could avoid future pregnancies until they are ready.

I think abortion (IMO) is a necessary part of healthcare, but trivializing it to the point of comparing it with treating worms makes me feel very uncomfortable.

More emphasis on preventing unwanted pregnancies is needed rather than a complete lack of personal responsibility ( applies to both men and women!)

A balanced response. People here take everything to extremes and if you dare question a woman's choice - not even saying she shouldn't be allowed to have it - you're shot down as a forced birther

@TreeSmuggler

I agree with you OP. I think it does the whole debate a bit of a disservice to say that, although I understand why people say it - it's pandering to the pro choice to make it more palatable for them. However it then makes the debate on their terms.

I'm as pro choice as they come, but like most societal issues, things aren't simple and people aren't perfect victims. Yes, sometimes people getting abortions are rape victims or women who used two types of contraception and took the MAP, other times it's women that didn't use contraception at all, even after previous abortions. There is no difference to me in worthiness to get an abortion.

Same with saying it isn't a baby/just a bunch of cells/etc. It is a life as much as any of us are a life, but I believe it's acceptable to end a life in certain circumstances, unwanted pregnancy being one of them. Euthanasia is another.

Agree entirely. Many pro choicest feel the need to say things like 'it's not a life' even it clearly is. All it does is reinforce the idea that abortion is only ok because it's not really a life. Like you say, it is a life- but sometimes it's ok to end life.

You rarely see women in soaps have abortions and then just get on with their lives. They either suffer agonies of remorse and are triggered every time they see a baby, or they change their minds st the last moment.

@CounsellorTroi

You rarely see women in soaps have abortions and then just get on with their lives. They either suffer agonies of remorse and are triggered every time they see a baby, or they change their minds st the last moment.

That's a better story.

They covered this in Sex and the City when Miranda was considering termination. Obviously she went through with it (better plot) but Sanantha had had three and wasn't bothered. Carrie had had one (I think) and she revisited the decision, thought about it, concluded it was right.

Miranda went through with the pregnancy, I mean.

Many pro choicest feel the need to say things like 'it's not a life' even it clearly is

Legally though, it's not a life. Personhood and lifehood (for want of a better word) legally only start at birth. There have been cases where unborn babies have been killed, such as by an abusive partner, and they cannot be charged with murder because in law you cannot murder someone who is not yet a person. The charge of child destruction is used instead however it is rare for someone to be charged with it as there has to be reasonable proof that the baby would have survived outside of the mother's body (post-28 weeks is the minimum limit stated for this and testing has to be done to check there were no health issues) and there has to be proof that there was specific and clear intent to kill the baby, that this was the point of their actions. Since 2013 there have only been 10 cases where it was possible to prove this and secure a conviction, in these cases it is more likely that the defendant will be charged with assault or grievous harm against the mother than child destruction.

"It's not a life" refers to legal status of the unborn, in early pregnancy it can also refer to biological status as for over half of the pregnancy, the foetus is not capable of sustaining its own life therefore without the mother it isn't a life, or at least not an independent life.

Legally though, it's not a life.

Imo the legal status of a fetus as 'not a person' has nothing to do with morality. It could be ruled differently in the future. It is ruled differently between countries. So I don't personally think that's relevant

Even if we say a fetus is a parasite, it's still alive. The fact that it is biologically alive, and a life, is not really a debate. A fetus has all the required life processes (movement, respiration etc.). My 36w fetus' limbs protrude from my abdomen. In no way are they not living, just because they grow on the inside and we can't see them

The value you put on that life however, is another matter. But yes, of course it is alive, and is alive. Legal status in the U.K. is granted upon birth, but that's not the marker of life to most, of any political affiliation

@notforonesecond

I only agree with abortion in very specific circumstances.

Like when a woman is pregnant and doesn’t want to be.

This can't be repeated enough.