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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU She/Her

258 replies

beewritesx · 09/09/2021 11:19

My sister is a big advocate of trans rights and says that pronouns in bio is a way of showing inclusion and support of the trans community.

I was quite surprised to receive a professional email from my ex boss with She/Her listed next to her email address (as I know this person and their gender).

I believe people should have the right to identify as they choose. If somebody asked me to call them X, I will as it's respectful. I also believe that if somebody is aged over 18 and decides to transition or change their gender identity they should do so with no persecution whatsoever.

However, pronouns in bio is just something I don't understand and cannot get on board with. If I'm ever in a professional position it's not something I would want to consider. I can't explain why. I just don't.

AIBU or too "traditional" (like my younger sister would probably argue) or does anyone feel the same? I can't give a rational explanation as to why I wouldn't, I just don't want to.

OP posts:
Whatwouldscullydo · 09/09/2021 16:32

I dont understand what you mean?

Compelled speech is not anyones right trans or otherwise.

There are 8 other protected characteristics which have to be given equal consideration.

DrSbaitso · 09/09/2021 16:33

That I can’t know if Anna wants to be called something different.

But in your example, she doesn't want to be called something different. She isn't ready to be called "he". I wondered at first if you'd mistyped, but you confirmed it as "your point" when I said "she still wants to be called "she", so there's nothing for you to know".

So if Anna intends to remain she, at least for the time being...what information are you missing?

Pumperthepumper · 09/09/2021 16:33

@Whatwouldscullydo

I dont understand what you mean?

Compelled speech is not anyones right trans or otherwise.

There are 8 other protected characteristics which have to be given equal consideration.

I mean; where will you allow trans women to be recognised as trans women? If not their pronouns?
Pumperthepumper · 09/09/2021 16:35

@DrSbaitso

That I can’t know if Anna wants to be called something different.

But in your example, she doesn't want to be called something different. She isn't ready to be called "he". I wondered at first if you'd mistyped, but you confirmed it as "your point" when I said "she still wants to be called "she", so there's nothing for you to know".

So if Anna intends to remain she, at least for the time being...what information are you missing?

I’m not missing any. I still don’t know what you’re getting at? There is nothing for me to know if she doesn’t do anything towards being ‘he’, I can’t know anything different. I don’t understand why you’re labouring this point?

Where’s your line?

Whatwouldscullydo · 09/09/2021 16:36

Again what do you mean?

I am not obligated to validate anyones identity. If it doesn't work of no ne else pays attention or goes along with it then that's not people not including people that's just the nature if what you want validating. Something you can't define or visibly see. I will be civil and polite as I would with anyone but tahts as far as anyones obligation goes

HipTightOnions · 09/09/2021 16:38

“Preferred pronouns” are such a mealy-mouthed proxy.

If Mary (a woman, female, for the sake of clarity) signs off with “she/her” she is saying “I believe in gender identity and I’m not trans”.

If Alex (male) signs off with “she/her” he is telling us “I believe in gender identity, I’m trans and I expect you to treat me as a woman, at least in your speech, and probably in other ways as yet unspecified”.

Mary would presumably be fine with this but not everyone will be.

Pumperthepumper · 09/09/2021 16:39

@Whatwouldscullydo

Again what do you mean?

I am not obligated to validate anyones identity. If it doesn't work of no ne else pays attention or goes along with it then that's not people not including people that's just the nature if what you want validating. Something you can't define or visibly see. I will be civil and polite as I would with anyone but tahts as far as anyones obligation goes

And if they asked to be called ‘he’ as a biological female?
Libraryghost · 09/09/2021 16:40

I just won’t play this game. The one that gets me is they/them. It’s ridiculous. I am just ignoring it.

Whatwouldscullydo · 09/09/2021 16:42

I'd avoid using pronouns altogether ajd just use their name. Again if I'm talking directly directly them it would not be an issue anyway. It would be you/we

DrSbaitso · 09/09/2021 16:45

I’m not missing any. I still don’t know what you’re getting at? There is nothing for me to know if she doesn’t do anything towards being ‘he’, I can’t know anything different. I don’t understand why you’re labouring this point?

Because it makes no sense!

Look back at the posts. You said that if Anna, who is she by default, isn't ready to be known as "he", you can't "know". And confirmed it as "your point" when I rephrased the same question to check it wasn't a mistake.

Know what??

Nothing, you finally concede? So is this complete contradiction to "your point" actually just a correction of what you said before?

It's nothing to me how Anna communicates it, though I'd have thought the implication of a name change was harder to miss and less confusing than a line in an email sig. What if you don't email someone?

Pumperthepumper · 09/09/2021 16:47

@Whatwouldscullydo

I'd avoid using pronouns altogether ajd just use their name. Again if I'm talking directly directly them it would not be an issue anyway. It would be you/we
What if someone emailed you about them?
Eminybob · 09/09/2021 16:48

I think YAB a bit U as pronouns in email signatures seems to be gaining popularity. I find it quite useful, especially when emailing someone with a unisex name or someone who prefers they/them pronouns for example

In what circumstances would you ever need to use someone’s pronouns when emailing them? Surely you only need to use their name and “you”

Whatwouldscullydo · 09/09/2021 16:48

" I spoke to Anna, all is fine, the email to head office was sent. If you need any more info email anna"

Pumperthepumper · 09/09/2021 16:48

@DrSbaitso

I’m not missing any. I still don’t know what you’re getting at? There is nothing for me to know if she doesn’t do anything towards being ‘he’, I can’t know anything different. I don’t understand why you’re labouring this point?

Because it makes no sense!

Look back at the posts. You said that if Anna, who is she by default, isn't ready to be known as "he", you can't "know". And confirmed it as "your point" when I rephrased the same question to check it wasn't a mistake.

Know what??

Nothing, you finally concede? So is this complete contradiction to "your point" actually just a correction of what you said before?

It's nothing to me how Anna communicates it, though I'd have thought the implication of a name change was harder to miss and less confusing than a line in an email sig. What if you don't email someone?

I can’t know that she wants to be known as he if she says nothing. So I’d assume she was happy with ‘she’.

Where’s your line?

Pumperthepumper · 09/09/2021 16:48

@Whatwouldscullydo

" I spoke to Anna, all is fine, the email to head office was sent. If you need any more info email anna"
Ok, thanks for your time.
Pumperthepumper · 09/09/2021 16:50

@Eminybob

I think YAB a bit U as pronouns in email signatures seems to be gaining popularity. I find it quite useful, especially when emailing someone with a unisex name or someone who prefers they/them pronouns for example

In what circumstances would you ever need to use someone’s pronouns when emailing them? Surely you only need to use their name and “you”

If it was a group email. ‘Anna, you’re doing this. Bill, once she’s done that, you can start this. Fiona once Bill confirm’s he’s completed it, you can start that’ and so on.
Whatwouldscullydo · 09/09/2021 16:51

What's wrong with that. I dont misgender I don't say anything mean..I.also don't email saying susie the vegetarian, Gary the gay, Matthew the short cricket payer. Akd they don't email sculky the mother. No one is having anything validated.

DrSbaitso · 09/09/2021 16:55

I can’t knowthat she wants to be known as he

Complete opposite situation to what you said and subsequently confirmed, then. OK.

If Anna wants to be known as he, I think it's wiser and easier to do the name change. The implication is clear and saves having to come right out and make a potentially awkward statement. It will also save confusion and mistakes from anyone who hears the name Anna and draws the obvious conclusion. It can be communicated however Anna likes.

Pumperthepumper · 09/09/2021 16:56

@Whatwouldscullydo

What's wrong with that. I dont misgender I don't say anything mean..I.also don't email saying susie the vegetarian, Gary the gay, Matthew the short cricket payer. Akd they don't email sculky the mother. No one is having anything validated.
None of those things are likely to come up in real life though. You have no need to identify susie as a vegetarian or Gary as gay. But you do have to speak to them and about them by using their name and their pronouns. And you’re going to call them ‘they’ regardless, so that’s the answer to the question I asked you.
Whatwouldscullydo · 09/09/2021 16:56

Given all the polices and marketing campaigns now we'll ones aimed at women don't mention the work woman or female etc once then it's surely OK to write an email not using pronouns or referencing gender/sex?

You wouldn't he saying the only.people allowed to be referred to as he/she would be trans people are u?

Pumperthepumper · 09/09/2021 16:57

@DrSbaitso

I can’t knowthat she wants to be known as he

Complete opposite situation to what you said and subsequently confirmed, then. OK.

If Anna wants to be known as he, I think it's wiser and easier to do the name change. The implication is clear and saves having to come right out and make a potentially awkward statement. It will also save confusion and mistakes from anyone who hears the name Anna and draws the obvious conclusion. It can be communicated however Anna likes.

Ok.

So where’s your line re including trans people?

Whatwouldscullydo · 09/09/2021 16:58

If they are there at work.and you are emailing them then they are included Confused

Validation is for tickets not people

Pumperthepumper · 09/09/2021 16:59

@Whatwouldscullydo

Given all the polices and marketing campaigns now we'll ones aimed at women don't mention the work woman or female etc once then it's surely OK to write an email not using pronouns or referencing gender/sex?

You wouldn't he saying the only.people allowed to be referred to as he/she would be trans people are u?

Such as?
DrSbaitso · 09/09/2021 17:01

So where’s your line re including trans people?

That they should be able to live, work and love authentically to themselves without persecution. And that spaces and services that are female-only for a reason (safety, athletic integrity etc) should not be open to anyone with an intact male body who merely says they feel female, since actually being female is not a feeling.

BiBabbles · 09/09/2021 17:02

I don't have an issue with other people putting it in their signatures, I usually only look there to know how to address any follow up emails.

I don't have any pronouns nor do I use a title in emails - and yes, I have a debatably unisex name, it's part of the point of it. I can't remember the last email I sent where I needed to use pronouns even when discussing other people - I usually use their names, job titles, relationship to me.

I do have an issue when I've had conferences where I've been expected to use titles and pronouns and when in online meetings where pronouns have been used in brackets because I've noticed that my name pronunciation guide, also in brackets, is more likely to get ignored.

Continue performing your gender in more physical ways so people can guess it without asking

You may call it a performance, but seeing how they're interpreting me is (at times useful) feedback for me, especially online where they are few other cues. I'd rather see how someone genders me.

Do you call other parts of identity a performance? Cause I have people guess my ethnicities wrong all the time by physically looking at me, but I really wouldn't suggest calling that a performance.

But pronouns in emails seems to be to be an easy step in inclusion, so why not?

I get the motives, but the argument for inclusivity too often assumes one way of being trans or otherwise dysphoric. Gender dysphoria can be complicated and for some of us, being asked to nail our colours to the mast upfront increases dysphoria.

When others do the pronouns in an email or in brackets in an online meeting, it tells me that this is something they think is important about them and when others ask it of me, it tells me that they think this is important information for them to know about me and sometimes I find that questionable, other times anxiety inducing.

People used to do it all the time with email signatures that said Ms. Evelyn Smith or Mr. Evelyn Smith. Does that make you uncomfortable?

Other people doing it, no; however, I've been uncomfortable when I've been made to use a title or someone else has applied an assumed title to me when I've given none. My preference is to be called by the name I give.

I actually have been debating how to request a title be removed from a website that lists my name. Previously it didn't but over the summer a title has been put on everyone and I really dislike that that's how I'm being represented when the actual bio I gave still hasn't shown up. It's frustrating that that was given priority, but as the website design is already at a crawl, I've so far remained quiet.

And changing your name is a bigger step

For some it is, for others it isn't. This depends on the person.

I've found my name change rather easy -- I've used multiple names since I was little when I first started planning to change my name, but when I've been asked about my pronouns, I don't know, it sets my brain off. It makes me feel I must be doing something wrong that they need to judge me on, which is something I've heard from other dysphoric people as well - some trans, some not. I'm not sure the rise in popularity in doing this will help much.