AIBU She/Her

[beewritesx]

My sister is a big advocate of trans rights and says that pronouns in bio is a way of showing inclusion and support of the trans community.

I was quite surprised to receive a professional email from my ex boss with She/Her listed next to her email address (as I know this person and their gender).

I believe people should have the right to identify as they choose. If somebody asked me to call them X, I will as it's respectful. I also believe that if somebody is aged over 18 and decides to transition or change their gender identity they should do so with no persecution whatsoever.

However, pronouns in bio is just something I don't understand and cannot get on board with. If I'm ever in a professional position it's not something I would want to consider. I can't explain why. I just don't.

AIBU or too "traditional" (like my younger sister would probably argue) or does anyone feel the same? I can't give a rational explanation as to why I wouldn't, I just don't want to.

Normalising pronouns that don't correspond to biological sex leads to rape victims being forced to refer to their attacker as "she" in court, if the man decides to identify as a woman. The crime of rape specifically requires a penis in English & Welsh law.

Women having to pretend that the man who forced their man's penis up them is really and actually a woman is the end game of "just be nice" and "adding pronouns doesn't cost you anything". I am having no part in it.

Look up the recent case of rapist Michelle White (Godmanchester, Cambs) and see how kind that makes you feel about preferred pronouns.

I can't take "professionals" seriously when they announce their pronouns.

@Whatwouldscullydo

I don’t think that’s true - people are perfectly aware that you can be biologically female but want to be called ‘he’. I don’t think that’s such a strange concept any more

Only to those who subscribe to gender and those who care about the person on question.

Outside of friends and family no one else has any obligation to indulge.

But they understand it surely?

@FourteenSixteenTwentyTwo

I saw an interesting video from Blaire White before who strongly disagrees with gender identity. Her view is that why would she go through all that time and money and then need to keep telling people she’s a ‘she’. As a trans woman she wants to be recognised as a ‘woman’ at first glance and would find it humiliating is she was constantly mistaken and asked.

The only people this serves are those who don’t fully ‘present’ as their identity.

I do agree with this, maybe it's more relevant for non-binary people?

And also I guess those who, despite best efforts, still look like the opposite sex.

Excellent post (and username), @Wrongsideofhistorymyarse.

I see it also on Instagram more and more and it makes me sad when I see other women participating in the she/her indications on their profile, indirectly they’re contributing to the removal of their and our own safe spaces, by participating and thus approving of choosing one’s own gender, making it easier for predatory men to use this as an excuse to invade our safe spaces.
Perhaps I’m overthinking this but it does annoy me when I see it.

@LaBellina

I see it also on Instagram more and more and it makes me sad when I see other women participating in the she/her indications on their profile, indirectly they’re contributing to the removal of their and our own safe spaces, by participating and thus approving of choosing one’s own gender, making it easier for predatory men to use this as an excuse to invade our safe spaces. Perhaps I’m overthinking this but it does annoy me when I see it.

I see it as the opposite, actually.

Like it or not, trans people exist and we will eventually have to find a common ground. As I said above, I consider myself to be gender critical - I don’t believe trans women should be in a female prison, for example. But I do think pronouns make little difference to how we communicate, so why not?

I’d love to hear where other people draw their line.

Sorry, I missed my own point - I think by making a big deal out of the little things (to me, pronouns) it’s hard to be taken seriously when we talk about bigger issues.

it can force trans people to out themselves before they are ready. Ajd in the work place it increases the issues regarding sexism

This.

There's quite a bit of research which indicates that when attention is drawn towards women & girl's sex, both their performance, and the ways in which they are treated by others, declines.

And it's basically compelled speech, as well as performative virtue.

[quote Wrongsideofhistorymyarse]This is what I sent to our diversity manager when asked to declare my pronouns.

1.I have experienced a great degree of sexism at work. Bringing attention to my sex increases the likelihood of my being treated differently as a woman as this experiment demonstrates: www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/gender-inequality-man-woman-switch-names-week-martin-schneider-nicky-knacks-pay-gap-a7622201.html

2.Singling out a woman’s female status can result in ‘stereotype threat’. hbr.org/2016/08/why-women-feel-more-stress-at-work

3.I hold ‘gender critical’ beliefs, which are protected under the Equality Act and recently confirmed in www.gov.uk/employment-appeal-tribunal-decisions/maya-forstater-v-cgd-europe-and-others-ukeat-slash-0105-slash-20-slash-joj[/quote]
Brilliant cut-out-and-keep post @Wrongsideofhistorymyarse

Thank you so much!

I found the most compelling argument against it is if you are part of a large organisation that employs hundreds or thousands of people how in the hell are you going to remember everyone's preferences?

But they understand it surely?

Many who claim to understand are doing this to gain popularity. It's fir personal gain. If they actually cared about trans people they'd not have ruined it all for them by getting involved.

Everyone else just nods and smiles and hopes it never comes up where they work.

@Beowulfa suggest you interact with them a little more before shallowly dismissing them as ‘not a deep thinker’, both because it’s not much to go on (maybe they are just young, for one thing), and I value deep thinking but there are many pillars of society and lovely people to have in the family or the office who arent one, it’s not the be all and end all.

@Whatwouldscullydo

But they understand it surely?

Many who claim to understand are doing this to gain popularity. It's fir personal gain. If they actually cared about trans people they'd not have ruined it all for them by getting involved.

Everyone else just nods and smiles and hopes it never comes up where they work.

Ok. I can see you’re not interested in this conversation, let’s leave it there.

@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse

Many of us objecting take issue with the very idea of "performing our gender". I am not performing female. I am a female, due to biology, which is immutable. Everything else is personality. Or regressive stereotypes. Which I won't be supporting.

I don't even know what "performing my gender" means Can someone enlighten me please?

On the contrary, I'm very interested in why compelled speech towards someone who knows no one really believes what they are saying is a desired outcome?

I'm fat, of people kept telling me I was skinny and I looked amazing in my skin tight dress I'd know they were lying. I'd wonder why , and I'd wonder what else they were lying to me about.

It makes a very unstable ground to build a personal.or professional relationship surely?

I received my first email the other day with pronouns listed in the signature. I did judge the sender of the email and lost some respect for her.

@Whatwouldscullydo

On the contrary, I'm very interested in why compelled speech towards someone who knows no one really believes what they are saying is a desired outcome?

I'm fat, of people kept telling me I was skinny and I looked amazing in my skin tight dress I'd know they were lying. I'd wonder why , and I'd wonder what else they were lying to me about.

It makes a very unstable ground to build a personal.or professional relationship surely?

You don’t seem interested, you’re ignoring the questions I’m asking you and giving snide answers in return.

Being fat isn’t the same thing. A better comparison is if your colleague’s name was Catherine and they preferred to be called Cat. Might be a bit annoying for you to get used to but surely you wouldn’t mind?

Being fat isn’t the same thing.

It's a better comparison than choosing to go by a popular shortening of your first name. It's a physical characteristic with words in existence to describe it.

Using a shortening if someone's name is nothing like forcing people to be complicit in an ideology they don't believe in and find to be harmful

@Whatwouldscullydo

Using a shortening if someone's name is nothing like forcing people to be complicit in an ideology they don't believe in and find to be harmful

But you already use pronouns to refer to people.

@DrSbaitso

Being fat isn’t the same thing.

It's a better comparison than choosing to go by a popular shortening of your first name. It's a physical characteristic with words in existence to describe it.

It’s not though, because you wouldn’t call someone fat to their face in daily conversation. You wouldn’t refer to ‘fat x’ at work, for example. You have no need to reference their fat. You do their name.

I wouldn't mind this practice if I actually thought it was nothing more than a way of making trans people feel more at ease.

As it is, I agree with a PP that it can force them to come out before they are ready. There are also so many other truly awful things associated with what appears to be the dominant branch of trans rights activism that I can't help but see it as a way of forcing collective complicity with those.

And yeah, the impression I get from everyone who does it - almost all women, in my experience - is that it's performative.

Yes based on their sex. I dont subscribe to gender.

And usually not in emails because they are directly to someone.

Do you think I would have a right to tell you how you talk about me when I'm.not around? Becuase those words belong to you. They are nothing to do with me. And that's that's pronouns are used . When people aren't around.

It’s not though, because you wouldn’t call someone fat to their face in daily conversation. You wouldn’t refer to ‘fat x’ at work, for example. You have no need to reference their fat. You do their name.

And the same is true for pronouns.

However, if I did have to refer to someone as fat in their absence (and actually I occasionally do, but I tend to say "plus sized"), I wouldn't use the word "thin".