AIBU She/Her

[beewritesx]

My sister is a big advocate of trans rights and says that pronouns in bio is a way of showing inclusion and support of the trans community.

I was quite surprised to receive a professional email from my ex boss with She/Her listed next to her email address (as I know this person and their gender).

I believe people should have the right to identify as they choose. If somebody asked me to call them X, I will as it's respectful. I also believe that if somebody is aged over 18 and decides to transition or change their gender identity they should do so with no persecution whatsoever.

However, pronouns in bio is just something I don't understand and cannot get on board with. If I'm ever in a professional position it's not something I would want to consider. I can't explain why. I just don't.

AIBU or too "traditional" (like my younger sister would probably argue) or does anyone feel the same? I can't give a rational explanation as to why I wouldn't, I just don't want to.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Yes based on their sex. I dont subscribe to gender.

And usually not in emails because they are directly to someone.

Do you think I would have a right to tell you how you talk about me when I'm.not around? Becuase those words belong to you. They are nothing to do with me. And that's that's pronouns are used . When people aren't around.

What if you don’t know their sex?

@DrSbaitso

It’s not though, because you wouldn’t call someone fat to their face in daily conversation. You wouldn’t refer to ‘fat x’ at work, for example. You have no need to reference their fat. You do their name.

And the same is true for pronouns.

However, if I did have to refer to someone as fat in their absence (and actually I occasionally do, but I tend to say "plus sized"), I wouldn't use the word "thin".

It’s not true for pronouns - ‘Anna in the Belfast office says she’s got it’, ‘he’s ill today’ ‘do they work with Cat’? and so on. You use them all the time.

Then I'd use their name. Or think of them as " IT crew" or something.

Or most likely I wouldn't talk about them at all because they aren't that important..I've done my job and gone home.

It’s not true for pronouns - ‘Anna in the Belfast office says she’s got it’, ‘he’s ill today’ ‘do they work with Cat’? and so on. You use them all the time.

You said: "You wouldn’t call someone fat to their face in daily conversation."

You don't use pronouns to someone's face in daily conversation. Well, you do, but only "you". Not pronouns that are gendered in English.

The way I see it, it costs me nothing to put my pronouns in an email, and it helps a vulnerable group in society to be accepted

Please explain how it helps?

Is it because if everyone does it then those who identify with a different pronoun than the one they were given at birth won’t stand out?

I.e if we all do it then it will become more accepted?

Because it won’t work like that.

@DrSbaitso

It’s not true for pronouns - ‘Anna in the Belfast office says she’s got it’, ‘he’s ill today’ ‘do they work with Cat’? and so on. You use them all the time.

You said: "You wouldn’t call someone fat to their face in daily conversation."

You don't use pronouns to someone's face in daily conversation. Well, you do, but only "you". Not pronouns that are gendered in English.

But ‘you’ is a pronoun. And you’d also say, in front of them ‘oh bill! I’m just saying to Anna about the document and she’s sent it!’ If Anna was in front of you.

I kind of feel like my role in the workplace shouldn’t have anything to do with my pronouns - I don’t write Mrs, or Ms etc because it’s of not relevance if I am married or not.

If someone referred to me as ‘he’ in error would I correct them? Probably not unless it became an issue (by issue I mean reports etc have to be factually correct)

@GroggyLegs

Sex and gender should have zero relevance in a workplace, unless you're pregnant. And yet we have the gender pay gap & overwhelming overrepresentation of men in top positions.

The 'international companies: its so useful to know I'm emailing male Andrea!' is a perfect demonstration that men & women are treated differently in a professional setting based on nothing but perceived sex.

Why would anyone, particularly women, actively encourage this focus on sex or gender in a workplace?

Surely that depends on the work place ? It can be very relevant in care work for example. Or working in a DV shelter.

But ‘you’ is a pronoun. And you’d also say, in front of them ‘oh bill! I’m just saying to Anna about the document and she’s sent it!’ If Anna was in front of you.

Yes but as before, "you" isn't gendered in English, which is why it doesn't matter.

But what if Anna preferred to be "he" and wasn't ready to tell you that? If she is still using the name Anna, is it unfair to assume she's female gendered?

When she comes in one day and introduces herself as Adam, surely you could take the hint?

@DrSbaitso

But ‘you’ is a pronoun. And you’d also say, in front of them ‘oh bill! I’m just saying to Anna about the document and she’s sent it!’ If Anna was in front of you.

Yes but as before, "you" isn't gendered in English, which is why it doesn't matter.

But what if Anna preferred to be "he" and wasn't ready to tell you that? If she is still using the name Anna, is it unfair to assume she's female gendered?

When she comes in one day and introduces herself as Adam, surely you could take the hint?

But that’s exactly my point - if Anna isn’t ready to be called ‘he’ and says nothing, I can’t know. But if she’s ready and changes her pronouns on her email signature then she doesn’t have to tell anyone face to face. It’s an easy first step.

But that’s exactly my point - if Anna isn’t ready to be called ‘he’ and says nothing, I can’t know.

At that point, she still wants to be called "she", so there's nothing for you to know.

But if she’s ready and changes her pronouns on her email signature then she doesn’t have to tell anyone face to face. It’s an easy first step.

How is it any easier, and less obtrusive, than merely changing her name in her email to Adam? Do you read to the end of every email sig to see if someone has announced a change of pronoun?

@DrSbaitso

But that’s exactly my point - if Anna isn’t ready to be called ‘he’ and says nothing, I can’t know.

At that point, she still wants to be called "she", so there's nothing for you to know.

But if she’s ready and changes her pronouns on her email signature then she doesn’t have to tell anyone face to face. It’s an easy first step.

How is it any easier, and less obtrusive, than merely changing her name in her email to Adam? Do you read to the end of every email sig to see if someone has announced a change of pronoun?

At that point, she still wants to be called "she", so there's nothing for you to know.

Yes, that’s my point.

And changing your name is a bigger step than still being Anna, but asking to be called he or they. It’s more obvious.

Surely that depends on the work place ? It can be very relevant in care work for example. Or working in a DV shelter

This is even trickier again - so a trans women could secure a job working in the care sector caring for women? Or in a DV refuge for example.

Probably showing some ignorance here - how common is it for someone with a name associated with a specific gender to have the opposite pronoun?

So if someone was called Sophie - how likely are they want to be called “he”?

@QueenFreesia2021

Surely that depends on the work place ? It can be very relevant in care work for example. Or working in a DV shelter

This is even trickier again - so a trans women could secure a job working in the care sector caring for women? Or in a DV refuge for example.

Look up the CEO of the Edinburgh rape crisis Centre.

Yes, that’s my point.

What point? If she's still going by female pronouns, there's nothing to communicate. What do you need to know if Anna is still a she?

And changing your name is a bigger step than still being Anna, but asking to be called he or they. It’s more obvious.

Really? I'd have thought announcing a name change was quite a lot easier and more diplomatic than having to actually come out and say "I am still Anna but now call me "he"." Also less chance of people missing it because they don't scrutinise your email sig to see if the person called Anna is now He-Ann.

Probably showing some ignorance here - how common is it for someone with a name associated with a specific gender to have the opposite pronoun?

Look up pip/Philip bunce. You'd have to check.emails daily to know which one they are that day

My personal pronouns are I/me and myself, as are everyone’s.

@DrSbaitso

Yes, that’s my point.

What point? If she's still going by female pronouns, there's nothing to communicate. What do you need to know if Anna is still a she?

And changing your name is a bigger step than still being Anna, but asking to be called he or they. It’s more obvious.

Really? I'd have thought announcing a name change was quite a lot easier and more diplomatic than having to actually come out and say "I am still Anna but now call me "he"." Also less chance of people missing it because they don't scrutinise your email sig to see if the person called Anna is now He-Ann.

I don’t understand - I can’t know if Anna wants to be called ‘he’ unless she tells me, was my point. And she might not feel comfortable to tell me face to face. And she might not feel ready to change her name. She might feel able to ask to be called ‘he’ or ‘they’, she might not.

But all of this is very what-if, and it’s becoming a bit circular. If you’re not happy with pronouns, what are you happy with in regards to trans inclusion?

I don’t understand - I can’t know if Anna wants to be called ‘he’ unless she tells me, was my point. And she might not feel comfortable to tell me face to face.

Ok, this started off because you said: "But that’s exactly my point - if Anna isn’t ready to be called ‘he’ and says nothing, I can’t know."

I asked: if Anna isn't ready to be called "he", and is therefore still "she", what is it that you need to know?

Your response has been "that's my point", several times.

What exactly is this point?

Define trans inclusion?

I mean they should be employed and treated like everyone else surely? You can't be fired for being trans.

@DrSbaitso

I don’t understand - I can’t know if Anna wants to be called ‘he’ unless she tells me, was my point. And she might not feel comfortable to tell me face to face.

Ok, this started off because you said: "But that’s exactly my point - if Anna isn’t ready to be called ‘he’ and says nothing, I can’t know."

I asked: if Anna isn't ready to be called "he", and is therefore still "she", what is it that you need to know?

Your response has been "that's my point", several times.

What exactly is this point?

That I can’t know if Anna wants to be called something different. So therefore I’d assume she was ‘she’ unless she said otherwise.

Where’s your line with regard to trans inclusion?

I think using pronouns in emails makes inclusive people feel all virtuous.
Can't see how it helps anyone otherwise.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Define trans inclusion?

I mean they should be employed and treated like everyone else surely? You can't be fired for being trans.

Where are you happy with trans women being included with women, or trans men with men, if not pronouns?

@DoubleEx

Just put your pronouns down as male and then wait for the pay rise…