AIBU She/Her

[beewritesx]

My sister is a big advocate of trans rights and says that pronouns in bio is a way of showing inclusion and support of the trans community.

I was quite surprised to receive a professional email from my ex boss with She/Her listed next to her email address (as I know this person and their gender).

I believe people should have the right to identify as they choose. If somebody asked me to call them X, I will as it's respectful. I also believe that if somebody is aged over 18 and decides to transition or change their gender identity they should do so with no persecution whatsoever.

However, pronouns in bio is just something I don't understand and cannot get on board with. If I'm ever in a professional position it's not something I would want to consider. I can't explain why. I just don't.

AIBU or too "traditional" (like my younger sister would probably argue) or does anyone feel the same? I can't give a rational explanation as to why I wouldn't, I just don't want to.

@Breakfastofmilk

Presumably you also know your boss's surname, phone number and postal address but I doubt you would come on here complaining that she'd sent you an email with a standard automatic signature including that information.

It's information. Since you don't need the information you can ignore it. If she sends an email to someone who doesn't know her in person they now know what pronouns she prefers. And as your sister has explained to you, if she sends that email to someone who is trans and wondering who in the office might be supportive of them if they were to find out, now they know that too.

Why do you have a problem with her giving simple information?

This. My boss knows my name and my office address, same as his, and my phone number. I don’t edit it out of my signature every time I’m emailing him. You must know this so all this ‘I know their gender’ is a bit manufactured isn’t it? I don’t put pronouns into mine but I’m hardly going to get upset if someone else does.

Aside from the ideology issues, it's just unecessary in professional communication. We already have a method in the English language of referring to a person when their sex is unknown or irrelevant.

When addressing a person your options are name or the pronoun "you". "Dear Dr Singh, please could I check whether HR have sent you your new employment contract?"

When referring to a person in their absence the use of "they/their" is polite and correct in English. "There seems to be a delay with Dr Singh's new contract; please could you check their status in the HR system?"

I only ever look at email signatures for contact details (I regularly have to get items couriered and it's surprisingly hard to find full, correct postal addresses listed).

@Beowulfa I only ever look at email signatures for contact details (I regularly have to get items couriered and it's surprisingly hard to find full, correct postal addresses listed).
Well then it can hardly bother you can it if you don’t even read it?

If you don’t want to put your pronouns in your signature, don’t.

Why does it bother you if other people do?

@Nancydrawn

People used to do it all the time with email signatures that said Ms. Evelyn Smith or Mr. Evelyn Smith. Does that make you uncomfortable?

That's different. If you're writing a formal email or letter, you'd want to know how to address the recipient. You don't address anyone by their pronouns.

[quote timeisnotaline]**@Beowulfa* I only ever look at email signatures for contact details (I regularly have to get items couriered and it's surprisingly hard to find full, correct postal addresses listed).*
Well then it can hardly bother you can it if you don’t even read it?[/quote]
The point of an email signature is for concise, useful information in a professional context. Pronouns but no full contact details marks someone out as not a deep thinker; I have already classed two new colleagues as such.

I don't use pronouns professionally. People can use my name and unused theirs. It makes no difference to my work what my gender identity is.

I saw an interesting video from Blaire White before who strongly disagrees with gender identity. Her view is that why would she go through all that time and money and then need to keep telling people she’s a ‘she’. As a trans woman she wants to be recognised as a ‘woman’ at first glance and would find it humiliating is she was constantly mistaken and asked.

The only people this serves are those who don’t fully ‘present’ as their identity.

I agree. Years ago when doing diversity training for a new job, we were told that it was important that gay and lesbian people could talk about their weekends and same sex partners

Completely highlights the difference between the scenarios really.

On one the desired outcome is well, nothing. Keep mouth shut and carry on as you were before you found out they were gaynajd a work place bullying policy to cover anything else.

But here. The request is to open up yourself to increased incidents of work ace sexism. To out your beliefs on biology akd gender. And nothing is not the desired outcome. The desired outcome is everyone becomes the centre of attention and as among with the ridiculous notiok you have a right to decide how people talk about you.

And plays along

@Coldilox

If you don’t want to put your pronouns in your signature, don’t.

Why does it bother you if other people do?

The reason I know it annoys most people who I know is that it is either used as virtue signalling, or it is designed to push an agenda.

@Bumblenums1234

I don't use pronouns professionally. People can use my name and unused theirs. It makes no difference to my work what my gender identity is.

**I use theirs

@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse

But pronouns in emails seems to be to be an easy step in inclusion, so why not?

1. Because women experience sexism in the workplace
2. Because women can suffer from 'stereotype threat' when their sex emphasised (see link in my post above)
3. Because pronouns are directly linked to a genderist ideology to which I don't subscribe. It's like asking non-Christians to put 'Catholic or Protestant' in their email name
4. Because it's not inclusion at all. It's people showing their adherence to gender woo

I don’t see how any of those are related to pronouns in an email signature.

1. that won’t change with no pronouns in a signature
2. I can’t find your link but I’ll have a look again in a minute
3. it’s not though because you already use pronouns.
4. I don’t see how - it’s arguably no different from writing Mrs or Mr.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Because it normalises it. So you might be trans or NB and not ready to say yet. So you put your biological pronouns (weird phrase, I know) first and then when you’re ready, you can change them.

Normalise what exactly? The paranoia that everyone's talking about you so you have to make sure that they have all the relevant information about you to talk about? Normalise adding extra stress on already busy people who now have to sift through multiple emails a day to make sure they are up to date with pronouns ?

We should be normalising getting on with work.

People already have to keep themselves up to date with shop operating procedures , rule changes, disciplinary action , employment laws, flexi work.request, Rota changes , pay rises, job interview processes etc. How is this remotely an appropriate use of company time

No, normalise using pronouns that don’t necessarily correspond to biological sex. It doesn’t take that much time!

Then they become meaningless so what's the point?

@Whatwouldscullydo

Then they become meaningless so what's the point?

Why meaningless?

The reason you have that uneasy feeling is because it seems harmless to use pronouns, but it is forcing you to become complicit in a gender ideology which you maybe don't subscribe to. On a more practical note, if I need to refer to a third party and I don't know their pronouns, I just use they. So simple, offends nobody, nobody needs to out themselves. I don't know why we can't just use it universally in professional settings.

Of she can be used to describe a male then words no longer mean what they mean. No one has any idea who you mean or what you are taking about

And asking someone to ignore the evidence of their own eyes and ears is actually abusive. People do not go to work to be abused

@Whatwouldscullydo

Of she can be used to describe a male then words no longer mean what they mean. No one has any idea who you mean or what you are taking about

And asking someone to ignore the evidence of their own eyes and ears is actually abusive. People do not go to work to be abused

I don’t think that’s true - people are perfectly aware that you can be biologically female but want to be called ‘he’. I don’t think that’s such a strange concept any more.

And asking someone to ignore the evidence of their own eyes and ears is actually abusive. People do not go to work to be abused - this seems contradictory. Are pronouns meaningful or not?

YANBU. It’s crass, controlled speech and frankly it makes the person with their pronouns in their bio look like a moron.

I wouldn’t do it if I was asked to. My pronouns are: Bore/Off

Just put your pronouns down as male and then wait for the pay rise…

YANBU.

The pronouns people need to bother about/use are 'me, I', why do people need to dictate how they are spoken about behind their backs?

This happens in my work area. Some people add the he/him or she/her to their signature blocks others don’t. I choose not to. I think some people include the pronouns because their boss does and they want to be seen to support the initiative. As long as it’s not mandated I don’t care what they put in their signature block

@wednesdayweather

This is important though. Many of us objecting take issue with the very idea of "performing our gender". I am not performing female. I am a female, due to biology, which is immutable. Everything else is personality. Or regressive stereotypes. Which I won't be supporting

This!

Yes! ^^

I don’t think that’s true - people are perfectly aware that you can be biologically female but want to be called ‘he’. I don’t think that’s such a strange concept any more

Only to those who subscribe to gender and those who care about the person on question.

Outside of friends and family no one else has any obligation to indulge.