AIBU She/Her

[beewritesx]

My sister is a big advocate of trans rights and says that pronouns in bio is a way of showing inclusion and support of the trans community.

I was quite surprised to receive a professional email from my ex boss with She/Her listed next to her email address (as I know this person and their gender).

I believe people should have the right to identify as they choose. If somebody asked me to call them X, I will as it's respectful. I also believe that if somebody is aged over 18 and decides to transition or change their gender identity they should do so with no persecution whatsoever.

However, pronouns in bio is just something I don't understand and cannot get on board with. If I'm ever in a professional position it's not something I would want to consider. I can't explain why. I just don't.

AIBU or too "traditional" (like my younger sister would probably argue) or does anyone feel the same? I can't give a rational explanation as to why I wouldn't, I just don't want to.

Virtue theatre

I've bigger problems tbh 🤣🤣 I've received letters mr girls name surname and I just put it down to an admin error. In the grand scheme of things I couldn't care less what pronouns anyone uses for me. I understand that other people have more going on in their lives then to remember what I want to be called.

Does your boss have a gender neutral first name? I could see someone doing this if they are called "Alex" or "Sam" to prevent confusion.

If your name is Mary, though, whether given by parents or chosen upon transition, it's pretty clear that you're a "she".

@BlusteryLake

I am seeing it used more where I work because it is very international and you can't always tell from a name. Eg Andrea is a man's name in Italy,

If you're modifying your emails, changing your expectations or in any way treating Italian Andrea differently than Basingstoke Andrea, based on the fact you now know their 'gender' which in 99% of cases reveals their sex, that's appalling.

I have some standard documents at work that nowadays have they/them throughput. We used to have His and Her documents . However some people go through and change all the pronouns to Him/Her etc or ask for that to happen before they sign!

@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse and @Futurecatmum2

Thanks for text and link. Duly copied for if my workplace also decides to contribute to the widespread discrimination against- guess who! Women of course!

@LittleGreenGoblin

I think YAB a bit U as pronouns in email signatures seems to be gaining popularity. I find it quite useful, especially when emailing someone with a unisex name or someone who prefers they/them pronouns for example.

What I don't like is when companies force you to state your pronouns in your email signature, particularly as women are at higher risk of sex-based discrimination.

But surely if you’re emailing someone with a unisex name you’re not referring to them in the third person so it’s irrelevant. You don’t say ‘Dear they, thank you for your email......’.

I find it all rather performative and self indulgent.

I agree with you.
I just don’t particularly want to draw attention to my sex/gender/whathaveyou. I don’t think it’s relevant to my ability to do my job. And I often silently question why other people think it is.

The only I don't mind is if the person has a unisex (unigender? ) name. Otherwise I just roll my eyes. I would be fuming if our work insisted on this.

Actually it can force trans people to out themselves before they are ready.

^^
I thought this. I feel like trans campaigners aren’t always considering the interests of all trans people, without even moving on to whether campaigners and their allies are considering the wider implications.

At the risk of being blasted, I confess that I am confused by "They/Them" in a listed pronoun. It makes me want to think "well, how many of you are there in there?!". I'm happy for anyone to be the person that they truly are. But that one does confuse me.

So don’t then add your pronouns to your email Rabbit. It’s not even hard to not do something you already aren’t doing.

Continue performing your gender in more physical ways so people can guess it without asking

In the mean time as the rest of the world is starting to find it useful (for example in international companies which has sod all to do with the mn anti trans rhetoric) so people are going to continue doing it and you’ll just have to work it through like all the homophobes had to do about gay marriage.

@Stompythedinosaur

The way I see it, it costs me nothing to put my pronouns in an email, and it helps a vulnerable group in society to be accepted.

I'm old enough to remember a time where it was viewed sympathetically when men "just didn't feel comfortable" with pushing a pram or changing a nappy. I don't think mild discomfort at the status quo changing is really a good enough reason not to oppose equality.

It does cost you something. Look how differently female employees are treated by clients when they know what sex they are:

www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/gender-inequality-man-woman-switch-names-week-martin-schneider-nicky-knacks-pay-gap-a7622201.html

@Stompythedinosaur

The way I see it, it costs me nothing to put my pronouns in an email, and it helps a vulnerable group in society to be accepted.

I'm old enough to remember a time where it was viewed sympathetically when men "just didn't feel comfortable" with pushing a pram or changing a nappy. I don't think mild discomfort at the status quo changing is really a good enough reason not to oppose equality.

I don’t agree with this. I am passionate about equality. Equality is for everyone or it’s not equality, including transgender people, so I sympathise with and agree with wanting trans people to feel more comfortable expressing their pronouns.

However the problem is that putting pronouns in your signature does rather more than that. It is a political statement as to the status gender has over sex in our society- a belief which I believe to be utterly incompatible with equality. We will never achieve equality while axes of oppression are ignored - female people will be denied equality if sex is erased as a concept. There will be exceptions but generally stating pronouns in a signature is a signifier of not accepting the importance of recognising sex.

So while I do want to see transgender people less marginalised and disadvantaged in the workplace, the concept of putting pronouns has been co-opted by a militant “no debate” approach which means the concept of putting pronouns in simply as a harmless gesture to trans people is a non-starter.

You can't give a rational explanation because you are being irrational.

The pronouns in the bio are both a way of letting people know what they prefer to be called, and also a show of solidarity from people who aren't trans, to make it feel more normal IMO. Otherwise putting your pronouns only if you were trans would be a massive "Hey, I'm trans!" signal which some may not always want to announce.

This is what I heard from a trans person and am happy to support it, we use pronouns on email at work too. If someone didn't want to that would be fine as well. It's not an obligation. I wasn't sure at first whether to do it because I don't feel that strongly about my gender and I'm not sure if I do identify as female really.

As for people saying, "look how differently female employees are treated by clients when they know what sex they are" that's shit but a different issue. It's pretty fucking obvious I'm female - or will be assumed to be female - if my name's Lucinda or Jane, and the vast majority of people have names associated with a particular gender. Plus most customers / clients will see or speak to the person they are dealing with at some point and make whatever assumptions they're going to make based on that as well as their name, if they are one of the few with a gender neutral name.

Yanbu OP. I wouldn't put my religious views in my email signature, so I similarly wouldn't expect to be asked to state anything about any other belief system, which is what this is.

If I am ever asked to do this, I will refuse.

@HerrenaHarridan

So don’t then add your pronouns to your email Rabbit. It’s not even hard to not do something you already aren’t doing.

Continue performing your gender in more physical ways so people can guess it without asking

In the mean time as the rest of the world is starting to find it useful (for example in international companies which has sod all to do with the mn anti trans rhetoric) so people are going to continue doing it and you’ll just have to work it through like all the homophobes had to do about gay marriage.

Why is it useful to know someone's gender though? You should just be treating everyone the same, regardless of this.

I won't be doing this anyway, because I don't have a gender identity; because it has zero relevance to how I do my job; and because I really hate the intolerance associated with this - this assumption that not having pronouns makes you anti trans.

Sex and gender should have zero relevance in a workplace, unless you're pregnant. And yet we have the gender pay gap & overwhelming overrepresentation of men in top positions.

The 'international companies: its so useful to know I'm emailing male Andrea!' is a perfect demonstration that men & women are treated differently in a professional setting based on nothing but perceived sex.

Why would anyone, particularly women, actively encourage this focus on sex or gender in a workplace?

This is a fantastic article by a Mumsnetter on the psychological cost of being forced to use non-sexed pronouns.

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

I don't believe in gender identity - it is utter, unmitigated bollocks which hurts women.

@CloudPop

How does that help anyone who might be struggling with their gender identity?!

I've never understood this either @IToldYouIWasFreaky

Because it normalises it. So you might be trans or NB and not ready to say yet. So you put your biological pronouns (weird phrase, I know) first and then when you’re ready, you can change them. And it’s not a big deal because everyone already has their pronouns on their email signature and you’ve taken an easy step in coming out.

Pronouns in emails doesn’t bother me. I consider myself gender critical (in that I don’t believe in gender) and I think there are arguments to be had in where the line is drawn. I don’t believe trans women should be in female prisons, for example, because someone has to lose out there and I’d prefer it wasn’t women.

But pronouns in emails seems to be to be an easy step in inclusion, so why not?

It's a flashy sign to show how woke you are. My coo is using it now, large multi National form. Not a chance I will. it undermines everyone.

People used to do it all the time with email signatures that said Ms. Evelyn Smith or Mr. Evelyn Smith. Does that make you uncomfortable?

@BlusteryLake

I am seeing it used more where I work because it is very international and you can't always tell from a name. Eg Andrea is a man's name in Italy,

Why do you need to tell?

However, pronouns in bio is just something I don't understand and cannot get on board with

So don’t do it. It makes no difference to your life if others do.