AIBU She/Her

[beewritesx]

My sister is a big advocate of trans rights and says that pronouns in bio is a way of showing inclusion and support of the trans community.

I was quite surprised to receive a professional email from my ex boss with She/Her listed next to her email address (as I know this person and their gender).

I believe people should have the right to identify as they choose. If somebody asked me to call them X, I will as it's respectful. I also believe that if somebody is aged over 18 and decides to transition or change their gender identity they should do so with no persecution whatsoever.

However, pronouns in bio is just something I don't understand and cannot get on board with. If I'm ever in a professional position it's not something I would want to consider. I can't explain why. I just don't.

AIBU or too "traditional" (like my younger sister would probably argue) or does anyone feel the same? I can't give a rational explanation as to why I wouldn't, I just don't want to.

The way I see it, it costs me nothing to put my pronouns in an email, and it helps a vulnerable group in society to be accepted.

Unfortunately there is a cost though, it's an ideology that convinces girls, particularly lesbians, that they are womaning wrong and therefore are perhaps men. This goes with lifelong medicalisation that causes no end of health problems, removal of healthy breast tissue, and irreversible hormonal changes. It would be less harmful to put in your email signature that people can have whatever personality they like with the body they've got. When I see it from people who are obviously male / female and generally heterosexual I mainly think virtue signalling with probably little appreciation of what it's like to grow up lesbian or bisexual and gender non-conforming (as I actually did).

But pronouns in emails seems to be to be an easy step in inclusion, so why not?

1. Because women experience sexism in the workplace
2. Because women can suffer from 'stereotype threat' when their sex emphasised (see link in my post above)
3. Because pronouns are directly linked to a genderist ideology to which I don't subscribe. It's like asking non-Christians to put 'Catholic or Protestant' in their email name
4. Because it's not inclusion at all. It's people showing their adherence to gender woo

However, pronouns in bio is just something I don't understand and cannot get on board with. If I'm ever in a professional position it's not something I would want to consider. I can't explain why. I just don't

Can you dig a bit deeper and try a bit harder to explain why?

It's impossible to respond to this if nobody knows your reasons.

There obviously is a reason on some level, perhaps one you don't want to admit to/ confront, but it's there. Do a bit more searching.

We had an email going around Telling us we could order pins to reflect a whole host of things eg whether we are straight, gay, lesbian, CIs, transgender, non binary. The list was very long. I don’t understand id need to know this about someone in The business.

Because it normalises it. So you might be trans or NB and not ready to say yet. So you put your biological pronouns (weird phrase, I know) first and then when you’re ready, you can change them.

Normalise what exactly? The paranoia that everyone's talking about you so you have to make sure that they have all the relevant information about you to talk about? Normalise adding extra stress on already busy people who now have to sift through multiple emails a day to make sure they are up to date with pronouns ?

We should be normalising getting on with work.

People already have to keep themselves up to date with shop operating procedures , rule changes, disciplinary action , employment laws, flexi work.request, Rota changes , pay rises, job interview processes etc. How is this remotely an appropriate use of company time

I think it should be optional, but I admit it can be handy when people have names you are unfamiliar with, saves embarrassment!

@AnneLovesGilbert

I think YAB a bit U as pronouns in email signatures seems to be gaining popularity. I find it quite useful, especially when emailing someone with a unisex name or someone who prefers they/them pronouns for example.

Why on Earth do you need to know? Surely you relate to them as a fellow professional and can discuss the work in hand without knowing either their genitals or their chosen gender.

If I’m emailing an Alex or a Chris is makes no difference to me at all whether they’re a man or a woman. Why would I care?

If you want to refer to them when communicating to a third party it might be relevant.

@Fcuk38

We had an email going around Telling us we could order pins to reflect a whole host of things eg whether we are straight, gay, lesbian, CIs, transgender, non binary. The list was very long. I don’t understand id need to know this about someone in The business.

I would ask to have a pin saying F* off, it's none of your business.

We should be normalising getting on with work.

Oh yes to this! I don't want to bring my whole self to work. I'm an adult and professional and enjoy what I do.

@HerrenaHarridan

So don’t then add your pronouns to your email Rabbit. It’s not even hard to not do something you already aren’t doing.

Continue performing your gender in more physical ways so people can guess it without asking

In the mean time as the rest of the world is starting to find it useful (for example in international companies which has sod all to do with the mn anti trans rhetoric) so people are going to continue doing it and you’ll just have to work it through like all the homophobes had to do about gay marriage.

This is important though. Many of us objecting take issue with the very idea of "performing our gender". I am not performing female. I am a female, due to biology, which is immutable. Everything else is personality. Or regressive stereotypes. Which I won't be supporting.

If you want to refer to them when communicating to a third party it might be relevant

to whom? I don't know if people are talking about me behind my back, although I would assume in most cases they would still use my name.

If I’m emailing an Alex or a Chris is makes no difference to me at all whether they’re a man or a woman. Why would I care

I don't, but it's obvious that people still, unfortunately, treat men differently to women, so a female Alex might actually not mind being taken for a man, as she may get more respect and her instructions may be followed more expeditiously than if people know she is female. Sad but still true.

The way I see it, it costs me nothing to put my pronouns in an email, and it helps a vulnerable group in society to be accepted

I don’t think it helps trans people be accepted. It’s facile to think it would IMO, any more than putting your skin colour would stop racism. I know two trans people and neither of them feel the need to put their pronouns on letters. The older one finds it embarrassing, and, I think a reminder of things they’d rather forget, and the younger one just laughs at it. The only time I’ve seen pronouns are from people who are not trans.

If those people want to do it, they can, of course, but I think the idea that you must, or that doing so is automatically helping trans people, is wrong, and frankly quite patronising.

I don't think it should be forced, some people haven't yet decided/realised? Who they are and it forces people who aren't ready to made a declaration.

But if someone wants to do it then I don't care and will follow their requests. I don't feel the need, but I also don't care if people call me anything, people regularly get my name wrong never mind he/she, it's just not something I personally care about. I don't really consider my gender as part of my identity.

I’m sure I’ve read several accounts of women being taken far more seriously in email communication when their sex is unknown (eg using initials rather than their name, in one case a woman used a male colleague’s email address then continued because she was taken seriously when the recipient assumed she was male).
Apart from the obvious compelled speech arguments, there’s also the issue that men and women in the workplace tend to be treated differently, and this will surely exacerbate it.

I dont know how I feel about it. I worry that if everyone did it then it could push someone into deciding what they want to use before they are ready.

As an alternative example, im not sure if i qualify as bisexual so i would hate to have to decide whether to use the term publicly. But if other people declared themselves id feel unnecessary stress, particularly if all allies were using "heterosexual".

So i guess i support it but worry about whether it makes all trans people feel included or actually stresses some out.

Many of us objecting take issue with the very idea of "performing our gender". I am not performing female. I am a female, due to biology, which is immutable. Everything else is personality. Or regressive stereotypes. Which I won't be supporting.

And by "qualify" i mean im still working out my feelings. I think i am but im confused.

Done. To. DEATH.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Adding pronouns should be a personal choice, not a fad

I think tbh it blurs the boundaries. I dobt get this " bring your whole self to work thing" work is work. You are there to work. You have friends and family and free time for the rest. Private lives should not get in the way of work. Work colleagues don't exist to validate identities or pick our your wedding invitations or listen to your domestic problems etc

I agree. Years ago when doing diversity training for a new job, we were told that it was important that gay and lesbian people could talk about their weekends and same sex partners.

I remember thinking at the time that I wasn't interested in other people having more exciting weekends than I was, regardless of what sex they were sleeping with, churlish person that I am.

@BrimfulOfBaba

I believe people should have the right to identify as they choose. If somebody asked me to call them X, I will as it's respectful.

The pronouns in the bio are both a way of letting people know what they prefer to be called, and also a show of solidarity from people who aren't trans, to make it feel more normal IMO. Otherwise putting your pronouns only if you were trans would be a massive "Hey, I'm trans!" signal which some may not always want to announce.

Yes, but women may not want to shout ' Hey I'm a woman!' . In nearly all professional contexts being a woman is irrelevant. It shouldn't be need to be announced, and there is evidence that drawing attention to yourself as a woman can disadvantage women.

I don't really see how it is an act of solidarity. If someone is trans and they have chosen a male or female name, everyone will read that in the email and use the appropriate pronoun for that sex.

If they have chosen a name which does not indicate sex then they may wish to say what sex they want to be referred to, but tbh, in all the years I have worked with people with names used by both sexes they have never felt the need to do this. If you get it wrong they may say, actually I'm a man/woman, and you say, 'oh ok' and that's all that happened.

As for not wanting to come out as trans, well if you 'pass' you don't need to. If you don't, you can use a name for the sex you wish to live as (for emails) and people will use that pronoun, or in real life if you don't pass, telling people your pronouns won't stop you being identified as trans.

I don't think this really is about making it easier for trans people. No-one has to declare they are not dyslexic/ have ASD etc to make it easier for people who are to declare. Its really about enforcing submission to this particular, and controversial, social trend.

I've had the same experience - received an email (in a professional sense) with she/her in the signature.

To be honest, I couldn't have cared less if the person was a man, woman or a bloody giraffe as long as they do their job! It's a bit 'bandwagony' and unnecessary in my opinion 🤷‍♀️

There's actually been a socially-acceptable solution to this for years.

If someone wants to ensure people are aware of their sex (or gender identity? IDK - for something so fluid how can is possibly be captured in a couple of words... but I digress...

It's:

Alex Smith (Mr); or
Alex Smith (Ms)

I can't be doing with this at all. 'They' is just ridiculous. I know it's pedantic but I feel that it's someone wanting to identify as a team. So I always picture Sam Smith for example as a team of tiny Sam Smiths every time they are mentioned on the radio.

In any case, I'm sure it doesn't really address any real marginalisation or discrimination that is out there. It just ties people in up in knots.

I think the whole pronouns thing is a load of rubbish. My first name is Matilda, it often gets shortened to Matt (my dad did not like it spelled as Mat as he said that is something you wipe your feet on), I also have a PhD so I am often Dr Matt X. People make a mistake sometimes, presume I will be a man etc. but it is obvious when meeting me in person or hearing me speak I am a woman, however I have never been offended when someone has thought I would be a man.

I think it's virtue signalling bollocks, either from people who have drunk the trans kool-aid or from those who have not thought through the full insidiousness of the trans agenda, particularly for women. In either case, it makes it easier to identify people that are best avoided.

This is important though. Many of us objecting take issue with the very idea of "performing our gender". I am not performing female. I am a female, due to biology, which is immutable. Everything else is personality. Or regressive stereotypes. Which I won't be supporting

This!