He won’t marry me. AIBU?

[anonnancy]

Hi all.
From reading other posts similar to mine I suspect I know the answer to my question!

I have been with DP for 7 years. We have a beautiful 20 month old DS and he is the light of our lives. We own our home (both names
On the mortgage) and split bills fairly based on how much we earn (I do earn more than DP so I pay more to make it fair).

But he just won’t put a ring on it!

I love him very much, and when I probe him about it he just says “he can’t give me the wedding I want” (not sure what sort of wedding he thinks I want because even I don’t know that!) and I respond “it’s not the wedding I want it’s the marriage”. Still no proposal.

I’ve joked to have no more children until I am married. Seems to have little effect!

I didn’t think I’d be that bothered, but out of our group of friends we are the only couple still not married. I’m starting to get upset when I see friends or others I know that are getting engaged, because I am not. I know that sounds so pathetic! I just want to be his wife and he be my husband, but do I sit and wait for it to potentially never happen?

I certainly don’t want to feel like I’m forcing him down the aisle and I’d like him to marry me because he wants to and he sees his future with me. I don’t want him to propose because he thinks it’s what he should do / because he thinks I’ll leave otherwise.

I just feel a bit deflated by it all really and starting to struggle handling my emotions surrounding it..

I am very aware I probably sound like a needy / spoilt wench! Just need to vent to people who don’t know me I guess!

And that’s before taking into account all the legal ramifications of not getting married

[quote thatonehasalittlecar]@mydogisthebest (actually mine is, but that’s beside the point)

It is both outdated (as exemplified by the increasing trend to ‘live in sin’ and have ‘bastard’ children) and sexist (‘why hasn’t he proposed?’, being given away, the woman being expected to take his name etc etc). Just because your nieces & nephews have decided to accept the societal expectation doesn’t make it any less outdated and sexist.

If the OP took on board how outdated and sexist it is, perhaps she would be happier, rather than feeling ‘less than’ because he won’t propose, despite making the ultimate commitment by having a child with her.

@vickyp0llard

I mean, I can. I did. Life is too short to caveat and preamble everything with ‘I think’ or ‘IMO’, but isn’t it obvious?[/quote]
Many couples start off living together but many end up marrying. I certainly don't feel it is going out of fashion.

Not just my nieces and nephews that have married or will be marrying but almost all the youngish couples I know - neighbours, relatives, children of friends etc are married or engaged.

It's not a matter of "deciding to accept the societal expectation", lots of men and women want to be married.

I, and many others, do not think that having a child is the ultimate commitment. As other posters have said, many many men walk away from their children and plenty don't see them and/or pay anything for them.

Me and DH married because, for us, marriage is showing commitment to each other. We made vows that we have kept and fully intend to keep.

The OP wants to be married. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with that. Her OH supposedly has said he wants to marry and yet does nothing whatsoever about it.

If he loves and cares for the OP and knows that marriage is important to her why won't he marry her. If he, for some reason, has some sort of objection to marriage then he should have told her that and told her before they bought a house and had a baby

I had a baby without being married, like the OP I am the higher earner and own an equal share of our house. My son also has my surname. Don't let people make you feel bad for making a decision that suited your circumstances.

But if you want to get married, just propose to him, it's 2021, no need to wait around for a man to buy a ring.

@vickyp0llard I offered the opinion that it might not be in the OPs best interests to get married on a financial basis mainly because he is unwilling to commit, which suggests (to me anyway) if they get married there is a higher risk of divorce, where she is most likely to end up with custody of their child and carrying the costs with little contribution. She will have paid more than 50% in and it's a gamble what she will get out as she is the higher earner, but she'll still end up carrying the main costs of bringing up a child and possibly chasing him for standard CMS payments....it's a common picture. In many ways it's just better not to be married in the first place to someone who has cold feet. Perhaps choose not to have the mess of divorce on this one and to know where you are with shares of the house etc I'd give a bloke the same advice - but only if he was the primary carer for the kids and likely to be so in the longer term.

@DillonPanthersTexas

This is funny because if a bloke came on here saying he didn't want to marry his girlfriend because she earned less than him and could take half his money in a divorce, everyone would be calling him a dickhead...

Quite

Plus all the people demanding why the OP is paying more of the mortgage/living costs due to being the higher earner? It seems when it is the other way round then it is only fair that the bloke pays proportionally more and any resistance to this makes him a skinflint tight arse who should be binned immediately

Only when there are other factors, the single biggest and very common one being that the woman’s career has taken a hit from having children, but others are if the higher earner chooses a higher earning lifestyle but wants the other to pay half. There have been some pretty eye opening threads about women who can’t afford to go on holiday with their partner as the holiday is too expensive.

However, until the law catches up with society

Do you mean the law should treat unmarried couples as though they were married? I don't think that's fair. People should have the freedom to make their choices. The reason couples are unmarried is generally that they don't want the legal obligations.

I can't understand why some people see having a baby as being a bigger commitment than marriage.

So many pregnancies are accidents and having sex with someone and accidentally getting pregnant is hardly the same as asking someone to marry you and having a wedding.

@mydogisthebest

‘Many men walk on their kids’. Yeah, and a third of marriages end in divorce. I don’t understand your point? Do a third of men walk out on their kids?

Why should he have told her before? Marriage need not be the ultimate aim and the idea that a relationship is any less important or ‘forever’ without a ring is just nonsense these days.

Why should anyone’s desire not to marry trump someone’s desire to marry?

The only difference these days is tax / service pensions. In what other sphere is a life decision like this left solely to men? It’s pathetic.

How many pregnancies are accidents? More than a third? Because that’s how many marriages are ‘mistakes’ that end in divorce.

@thatonehasalittlecar

How many pregnancies are accidents? More than a third? Because that’s how many marriages are ‘mistakes’ that end in divorce.

But how many of those couples married because of an accident?

Childfree couples are far more likely not to divorce and to have long happy marriages.

If posts on here are anything to go by I would think a lot more than a third of pregnancies are accidents

[quote thatonehasalittlecar]@mydogisthebest

‘Many men walk on their kids’. Yeah, and a third of marriages end in divorce. I don’t understand your point? Do a third of men walk out on their kids?

Why should he have told her before? Marriage need not be the ultimate aim and the idea that a relationship is any less important or ‘forever’ without a ring is just nonsense these days.

Why should anyone’s desire not to marry trump someone’s desire to marry?

The only difference these days is tax / service pensions. In what other sphere is a life decision like this left solely to men? It’s pathetic.[/quote]
I have no idea how many men walk out on their kids but would guess it is a pretty high number. A third is more than possible, it is likely more.

They should have discussed things like marriage long ago, before they had a baby. Then he would have known she wants to be married so, if he doesn't, he should have told her.

Marriage is not the ultimate aim to YOU but it is for many and that includes men as well as women.

Again it is YOUR view that a relationship is less important without a ring. Many many people do not agree with that view.

Me and DH never lived together before we got married as we wanted to make the commitment to marry not just live together.

You say a third of marriages end in divorce but what are the figures for unmarried couples with children splitting up? I believe they are higher

Irrelevant what anyone else thinks the op wants to get married.

I’m sorry to say this but @Rubyrebel is right. Plenty of people choose not to marry but this has been clear from the start.
The ones who don’t and then make up some vague reason years down the line are commitment phobic. The next woman they meet they marry within months…

@thatonehasalittlecar

It is both outdated (as exemplified by the increasing trend to ‘live in sin’ and have ‘bastard’ children) and it's sexist, as he must propose.

Fuck me, what century has your time machine brought you from? NOBODY has talked about 'living in sin' or called children from unmarried couples 'bastards' for 75 years. Also, women don't have to say OBEY in the marriage vows anymore. In fact you can say what the fuck you want to say... And the dad giving the bride away, is a tradition that many women want, and like. They want their dad walking them down the aisle...

You clearly have massive issues and have clearly been very hurt somewhere along the line, but your sour, tainted, and toxic views of marriage, are just that - YOUR VIEWS. Most people do not agree.

Many people will be much better off - AND more secure when they are married. My DH proposed to me a year after we met. A year to the day. We moved in together a few months later, and got married 3 years after we met (2 years after he proposed,) and had our first child 3 years later Marriage was very important to me, and I have been happily married to my DH for almost 30 years. There is certainly nothing sexist or outdated about our marriage.

IMO, and IME, people who massively slag off marriage, and mock and deride it, are either...

A) In denial, or
B) bitter and jealous that no-one's ever asked them to get married....or
C) both of the above. ^

@mydogisthebest

Childfree couples are far more likely not to divorce and to have long happy marriages.

Utter hogwash.

What Christmas cracker did you fish that out of? Or did you see it somewhere once, in a naff woman's magazine, or on a shit website, or (the most likely scenario,) did you just make it up?

You can't present your opinion as fact. You also don't know every person in the world, so you can't claim that childfree people are much happier than people with children.

I suppose you'll tell me loads of people you know tell you they regret having their children. Funny how loads of childfree people seem to meet soooooo many parents who regret having their children.

I have found that amongst the people I know the desire to get married (as opposed to serious relationship, kids, home owning) was definitely dropping off by mid 30s. I think the novelty of weddings had worn off.

Not that that helps OP ...

If marriage not in the cards I would definitely want to get all legal matters sorted out in case of break up / it does turn out he's commitment phobic / someone passing away god forbid.

Sadly a friends fiance passed away shortly before their wedding and she wasn't entitled to any part of the home they lived in, his death in service benefit, etc. It was gutting.

[quote MyPatronusIsACat]@thatonehasalittlecar

It is both outdated (as exemplified by the increasing trend to ‘live in sin’ and have ‘bastard’ children) and it's sexist, as he must propose.

Fuck me, what century has your time machine brought you from? NOBODY has talked about 'living in sin' or called children from unmarried couples 'bastards' for 75 years. Also, women don't have to say OBEY in the marriage vows anymore. In fact you can say what the fuck you want to say... And the dad giving the bride away, is a tradition that many women want, and like. They want their dad walking them down the aisle...

You clearly have massive issues and have clearly been very hurt somewhere along the line, but your sour, tainted, and toxic views of marriage, are just that - YOUR VIEWS. Most people do not agree.

Many people will be much better off - AND more secure when they are married. My DH proposed to me a year after we met. A year to the day. We moved in together a few months later, and got married 3 years after we met (2 years after he proposed,) and had our first child 3 years later Marriage was very important to me, and I have been happily married to my DH for almost 30 years. There is certainly nothing sexist or outdated about our marriage.

IMO, and IME, people who massively slag off marriage, and mock and deride it, are either...

A) In denial, or
B) bitter and jealous that no-one's ever asked them to get married....or
C) both of the above. ^[/quote]
Exactly. If one doesn’t want to marry - fine. Utter venom hides insecurity. Same goes for people who deride being single. Or as you said children.
Stick to the facts. The legal state.

@TractorAndHeadphones

Exactly. If one doesn’t want to marry - fine. Utter venom hides insecurity. Same goes for people who deride being single. Or as you said children. Stick to the facts. The legal state.

Amen to that!

*IMO, and IME, people who massively slag off marriage, and mock and deride it, are either...

A) In denial, or
B) bitter and jealous that no-one's ever asked them to get married....or
C) both of the above*

Its the oldest tricky in the book to deride criticism as jealousy or bitterness but that's just you not wanting to engage with the criticism.

A lot of women are coming to realise that aside from the legal protections it affords them, marriage can actually be a pretty poor deal for them, because of the expectations that society has on married women. I have been married and I wouldn't ever want to do it again. I hated being married.

There are certainly plenty of sensible legal and financial reasons why marriage makes sense if you a) are the lower earner in the partnership and b) have or plan to have children. That's undeniable.

But marriage doesn't work for everyone.

@thepeopleversuswork

Marriage didn't work for you, and you were very unhappy, and your bitterness towards marriage comes out in your post. Just because it was shit for you, you tell yourself that a lot of women realise women get a poor deal with marriage. Your views are blinkered and sour.

Its the oldest tricky in the book to deride criticism as jealousy or bitterness but that's just you not wanting to engage with the criticism.

It's the oldest trick in the book to accuse someone of not wanting to engage with the criticism, because you don't like what you're hearing. And that is that some people are actually married - and HAPPY.

@thepeopleversuswork

*IMO, and IME, people who massively slag off marriage, and mock and deride it, are either...

A) In denial, or
B) bitter and jealous that no-one's ever asked them to get married....or
C) both of the above*

Its the oldest tricky in the book to deride criticism as jealousy or bitterness but that's just you not wanting to engage with the criticism.

A lot of women are coming to realise that aside from the legal protections it affords them, marriage can actually be a pretty poor deal for them, because of the expectations that society has on married women. I have been married and I wouldn't ever want to do it again. I hated being married.

There are certainly plenty of sensible legal and financial reasons why marriage makes sense if you a) are the lower earner in the partnership and b) have or plan to have children. That's undeniable.

But marriage doesn't work for everyone.

What expectations ? Genuine question. Expectations society places on mothers - yes, very obvious. What expectations are placed on married women that aren’t on women in LTR’s with kids? More to the point how does ‘society’ even tell? You can not wear a wedding ring. Nobody even has to know you’re legally married aside from you and your husband.

@TractorAndHeadphones

What expectations ? Genuine question.
Expectations society places on mothers - yes, very obvious.
What expectations are placed on married women that aren’t on women in LTR’s with kids? More to the point how does ‘society’ even tell? You can not wear a wedding ring. Nobody even has to know you’re legally married aside from you and your husband.

Exactly.

Funny how some single/unmarried, and divorced women are so scathing and bitter and toxic about marriage, and women who are married (on mumsnet AND in real life... ) But I rarely, (if ever,) see married women slating and berating single women, stating how married women are sooooo much happier than single women...

It's almost always single women who are nasty and negative and damning about married women, and marriage. Very rarely is it married women bashing single women.

It's very telling. As I said, they're bitter and jealous. If they were happily single - or in a relationship but very happy to be unmarried, they wouldn't be so nasty about married women (and marriage.) If they were happy, they wouldn't feel the need to berate other people, and their life choices.

As I said, the bitterness, resentment, and jealousy screams through in their posts.

Not saying ALL single/unmarried women are toxic and jealous of married women of course, but the ones who are so damning, spiteful, and toxic about marriage (as a few posters on this thread have been) sure are.

You're a placeholder. He's waiting for dreamgirl to float into his life and less commitment makes it easier if that does happen.

Lots of comments about how some people don't want marriage or how marriage is awful and no one should want it - that is irrelevant here. OP wants marriage, OP's boyfriend has said several times that he wants to get married despite his pisspoor excuses for why he hasn't proposed yet. If he truly doesn't want to get married at all he is an incredibly cruel individual for making his girlfriend believe that it's something he wants too.

@pollypocketlover

You're a placeholder. He's waiting for dreamgirl to float into his life and less commitment makes it easier if that does happen.

Lots of comments about how some people don't want marriage or how marriage is awful and no one should want it - that is irrelevant here. OP wants marriage, OP's boyfriend has said several times that he wants to get married despite his pisspoor excuses for why he hasn't proposed yet. If he truly doesn't want to get married at all he is an incredibly cruel individual for making his girlfriend believe that it's something he wants too.

100% this! ^

It's very telling. As I said, they're bitter and jealous. If they were happily single - or in a relationship but very happy to be unmarried, they wouldn't be so nasty about married women (and marriage.) If they were happy, they wouldn't feel the need to berate other people, and their life choices.

I'm not berating anyone for their choices. I've said marriage is the sensible option for a lot of people for practical reasons. And I certainly haven't been nasty about married women.

But I just don't agree with you and I think insisting that anyone with a different perspective from you is automatically "bitter" and "jealous" is a sign of a weak argument.

I am genuinely very happy single -- much more so than I was when I was married. I can list all the reasons here but this is all irrelevant anecdote.

More generally my perspective on marriage is this: its a very useful insurance policy to protect the financially weaker of the two partners (usually, though not always, the woman). If seen in this context its a good tool.

But the miasma of social baggage around marriage in my view lead to a lot of very rose-tinted spectacles and poor planning. Men and women go into it with certain expectations about needs which they think will be met and very often those expectations are mismatched. In particular men not always but very often expect their wives to be their domestic helpmeets, nannies and admin assistants and don't pull their weight with these elements of family life, leaving all this to the woman. There are exceptions, but these seem to be in the minority.

This works well up to a point when the woman isn't working. But as increasingly women come to earn at parity with their husbands, yet still pick up all the slack domestically, a lot of those women come to feel resentful of the deal they are getting.

This doesn't happen in every marriage but its common and its not just me who feels like this, there are 7 or 8 posts on this board on a daily basis about this.

You don't have to agree with me on this but I'm well within my rights to feel like this without being shot down for being bitter of jealous or told I'm in denial.

In any case, none of this is relevant to the OP's situation.