AIBU about people who say ‘they worked hard to get to where they are’?

[MessyMissyMe]

Generally these are highly paid people who were able to go to University (support from parents/inherited intellect/confidence and self belief built up by secure, happy childhood) or had the resources to start their own business and were lucky enough to get remunerated by employment that they enjoyed and were good at, didn’t have outside influences or stressors that made things harder/took up time they needed to study or build a career.

They basically are just LUCKY and don’t deserve their success anymore than a cleaner or a care worker living hand to mouth in social housing deserves their lack of.

AIBU to get annoyed at people who say this?

YABU
We have sacrificed a lot as well as sweated blood and tears to get where we are today.
With respect you are being quite narrow minded and naive in even asking the question.

Environment/nurture can certainly make a huge difference to how intelligent a person appears to be, but imo if your brain doesn't have high processing speed and memory capability, then there's a limit to how much you can improve. Of course both nature and nurture are still largely down to luck though. And although whether we hang around in the library or the bike sheds as a teenager is to a certain extent our own choice, our tendencies choices-wise have already been massively influenced by our environment and upbringing as young children by then.

@OhDearMuriel

YABU We have sacrificed a lot as well as sweated blood and tears to get where we are today. With respect you are being quite narrow minded and naive in even asking the question.

You think only (some of) the rich and successful people work hard?

YABU We have sacrificed a lot as well as sweated blood and tears to get where we are today. With respect you are being quite narrow minded and naive in even asking the question.

Can you explain what is 'naive' about anything the OP asked?

The OP was simply asking if she's unreasonable to think that a lot of people who claim to have achieved success or wealth through sheer hard work fail to recognise that they benefitted hugely from a fortunate start in life. I don't think she is being unreasonable at all.

If you didn't have a fortunate start in life, @OhDearMuriel, then there's no need to be so offended - the OP's point doesn't apply to you. However, if you did have a fortunate start in life, then your post is rather proving the OP's point!

And that's OK! I'm not bitter, I'm not feeling sorry for myself or the victim of my own lack of intelligence, but it is strange that people (intelligent people!) don't get this. If you get 625 points in your leaving cert and you get in to Law or Medicine, do you honestly think everybody could have done that if they'd just worked harder? Do intelligent people think that less intelligent people just need to work harder? Is that their blind spot?

I know someone who is naturally gifted at sports and he participated at a couple at a very high level. He obviously trains very hard but insists it's nothing to do with luck or natural talent - it's all testament to how hard he trains. By this thinking if you took 20 people, same age and gender, and made them all eat the same diet and do the same training programme in x number of months, they should all be the same level, right..? Of course some would work harder or put in more effort (and potentially be rewarded for that in the results) but it wouldnt be true to say they were all capable of a 17 minute 5k (for the sake if argument), regardless of how much effort they put in.

Yanbu

By this thinking if you took 20 people, same age and gender, and made them all eat the same diet and do the same training programme in x number of months, they should all be the same level, right..?

This is the theory behind Bounce if you've ever read it. He talks about how two streets in England produced a number of national table tennis champions for a while. He is a proponent of the 10,000 hour theory, whereby the top people in their field became experts after 10,000 hours practice.

He uses the example of two roads in England producing a number of national table tennis champions who happened to have access to a 24 hour table tennis club, an excellent coach and various other factors. He extends his analysis to people like Mozart. There are various counter books on talent being the winning formula but his falls very much in the hours of practice theory.

@Iggly Yes exactly. He has had some good luck but it wouldn’t have meant anything if he hadn’t put the hard work in. It's only good luck with retrospect and with the hard work.

[quote ComeTheFuck0nBridget]@Iggly Yes exactly. He has had some good luck but it wouldn’t have meant anything if he hadn’t put the hard work in. It's only good luck with retrospect and with the hard work.[/quote]
There are people out there who would blossom with a bit of luck. That’s how I see it - so why not acknowledge that and try and spread more luck

@iggly that's true. We took on an unskilled labourer recently, hes a really hard worker and wanted to learn, so we offered to put him through an apprenticeship. Was that luck for him or was it his hard work?

mim yes and that is consistent too with my view of it being about half genetics and other half environment. I must have done 10,000 hours of classical music as a teenager so not surprisingly I am fairly good.

I graduated a teetotal virgin with law prizes and top of year just about now that was partly because I didn't have the distraction of a boyfriend and didn't drink. That definitely did help. I also earned more in the year of pregnancy than most women because I worked full time until I went into labour and went back full time after 2 weeks and used my annual leave for the 2 weeks off - those were choices but partly luck as I was not ill when pregnant. So a mixture of luck and active choices and hard work.

Back in the 1990s I did a year as a visiting professor in the USA and lodged with a couple of academics who were very active in the university charity. When they heard that I had come from a shit poor background and had gone to uni in my 40s they asked if I would be a "motivational speaker" at one of their fundraisers. Not knowing anything about motivational speaking, and having none of the tricks and flourishes that an American speaker would use, I pointed this out. They said no, we just want you to talk about how you overcame your background and your parents opposition in the matter of fact way you have just spoken to us. We want it to be authentic. Later, when I had done the engagement, I was approached by others and offered speaking engagements around the country, all expenses paid. I could probably have made a good career out of it. I told the US academics that if I had spoken like that at home I would have been resented for "blowing my own trumpet" and not being modest about my achievements. They reminded me that America is a "can do" society where people are respected for what they achieve, and not for where they come from.

"I graduated a teetotal virgin with law prizes and top of year just about now that was partly because I didn't have the distraction of a boyfriend and didn't drink. "

What subject did you do? In mine, working harder wouldn't have made more than a few points' difference. I knew I wasn't on the border between classifications so it made no difference to me.

@lazylinguist

Environment/nurture can certainly make a huge difference to how intelligent a person appears to be, but imo if your brain doesn't have high processing speed and memory capability, then there's a limit to how much you can improve. Of course both nature and nurture are still largely down to luck though. And although whether we hang around in the library or the bike sheds as a teenager is to a certain extent our own choice, our tendencies choices-wise have already been massively influenced by our environment and upbringing as young children by then.

I think environment mainly matters in childhood. However, it was interesting to read about someone raising his IQ in adulthood - a prisoner studying law for his own defence. According to common sense beliefs, he would be able to learn more things, but not actually become more intelligent, yet he did, according to the IQ score.

^I think environment mainly matters in childhood.
However, it was interesting to read about someone raising his IQ in adulthood - a prisoner studying law for his own defence.
According to common sense beliefs, he would be able to learn more things, but not actually become more intelligent, yet he did, according to the IQ score.^

Exactly this. There is this preconception that intelligence is something that is hard-wired - that some people simply have more powerful brains, a bit like computers have faster processors or bigger hard drives. But the reality is more complex - there is barely a cogent definition of what 'intelligence' is - and we can certainly influence our cognitive abilities through hard work and good choices (or their absence).

@simitra

Back in the 1990s I did a year as a visiting professor in the USA and lodged with a couple of academics who were very active in the university charity. When they heard that I had come from a shit poor background and had gone to uni in my 40s they asked if I would be a "motivational speaker" at one of their fundraisers. Not knowing anything about motivational speaking, and having none of the tricks and flourishes that an American speaker would use, I pointed this out. They said no, we just want you to talk about how you overcame your background and your parents opposition in the matter of fact way you have just spoken to us. We want it to be authentic. Later, when I had done the engagement, I was approached by others and offered speaking engagements around the country, all expenses paid. I could probably have made a good career out of it. I told the US academics that if I had spoken like that at home I would have been resented for "blowing my own trumpet" and not being modest about my achievements. They reminded me that America is a "can do" society where people are respected for what they achieve, and not for where they come from.

Ha. I can absolutely relate to this. If you stick in the work to be successful - to get good grades, whatever - and you are from a rough background, the safest thing is to keep your head down, lest you become a target.

There a lot right about British culture, but our anti-intellectualism and (as the OP has demonstrated) resentment of success are fucking rotten.

There are people out there who would blossom with a bit of luck. That’s how I see it - so why not acknowledge that and try and spread more luck

I agree that talent, luck and work ethic are all important - and I honestly think that luck - getting the breaks - is the thing that is most instrumental.

I know people who are very able, but despite applying for many posts don't interview well etc and don't get the jobs they deserve.

I also know others - intellectually very capable - but who, hang got their degree are either bone-fecking idle and sit back, or are completely incapable of applying the theory they learned to the actual job in hand, and are carried by the staff under them.

They usually manage to take the credit of their underlings' work, to and get promoted - and then on occasion promoted again to a position were they can do the least damage. Particularly if they have the "gift of the gab" and appear on the surface to be an excellent envoy for the organisation.

I was reminded of this thread earlier today. I was decluttering and came across a photo taken in the early nineties with a little girl I competed against in a sport and became friendly with. We lost touch but I remembered her name. She was from a very well-to-do family based in Kensington and I was sure about the path she would have taken in life based on her background and privileges. The curiosity got too much and I decided to look her up.

It was almost uncanny how she'd done exactly what I always imagined she'd do, as if her path were laid out in front of her and all she had to do was walk down it in a relatively straight line. Private school, private sixth form, Cambridge, prestigious internships, straight into a very well-paid job after uni. Now, I'm sure she did work hard to achieve her excellent grades, but it's just not the same, is it, when you have absolutely everything at your disposal to help you reach your potential? You'd almost have to try quite hard to mess up with that level of privilege, with safety nets below safety nets ready to catch you if anything did go wrong. Fail your exams? That's OK, dad will fork out another 40 grand for another year of school and you can do them again. Dream internship is unpaid? No worries, dad is more than happy to pay your way.

There was just no way this girl was ever, ever going to fail at life with the parents she had and the privileges she possessed on every level (money, good looks, brains). While I'm sure she has worked hard, her starting point in the race was almost at the finish line and she just basically had to take a few steps over it rather than toil for years and years training for it. And I'm not sure she - and others in her fortunate position - truly do grasp just how lucky they are.

There was just no way this girl was ever, ever going to fail at life with the parents she had and the privileges she possessed on every level (money, good looks, brains). While I'm sure she has worked hard, her starting point in the race was almost at the finish line and she just basically had to take a few steps over it rather than toil for years and years training for it. And I'm not sure she - and others in her fortunate position - truly do grasp just how lucky they are.

This really resonates with me, not only are the starting points different, but people have different obstacles to overcome on the way, and they have varying degrees of help to overcome those obstacles.
That, and the way financial success is deemed the only success worth having. When half the time those with the financial success have used the resources that others without that success provide. I don't have an issue with that, in principle, it's how things work. I have a big issue with someone using the resources I provide that enables them to reach that success, then slate me for not having the same success because I don't work hard enough, or have enough drive. I don't expect gratitude, or even acknowledgement (though it'd be nice!) but I really resent the attitudes that having used services from the 'unsuccessful' to be 'successful' they then stick the boot in with the whole 'If you just work hard enough......'

@Maverickess

There was just no way this girl was ever, ever going to fail at life with the parents she had and the privileges she possessed on every level (money, good looks, brains). While I'm sure she has worked hard, her starting point in the race was almost at the finish line and she just basically had to take a few steps over it rather than toil for years and years training for it. And I'm not sure she - and others in her fortunate position - truly do grasp just how lucky they are.

This really resonates with me, not only are the starting points different, but people have different obstacles to overcome on the way, and they have varying degrees of help to overcome those obstacles.
That, and the way financial success is deemed the only success worth having. When half the time those with the financial success have used the resources that others without that success provide. I don't have an issue with that, in principle, it's how things work. I have a big issue with someone using the resources I provide that enables them to reach that success, then slate me for not having the same success because I don't work hard enough, or have enough drive. I don't expect gratitude, or even acknowledgement (though it'd be nice!) but I really resent the attitudes that having used services from the 'unsuccessful' to be 'successful' they then stick the boot in with the whole 'If you just work hard enough......'

Yep.

The problem is the privileged often just don't see the privilege. They've never known anything different. I met a girl at uni who thought about 50% of people went to private school (it's actually 7%!) and that the average household income was about £100K. When you grow up going to private schools and are surrounded by other rich, privileged people, you get a totally distorted sense of what 'normal' looks like.